The Other Culture War

Sunday Night Journal — July 3, 2011

(I was going to write about something else today, but this is
something I’ve been thinking about, and it’s appropriate
for Independence Day, so I think I’ll go ahead and get it out
of the way.)


The term “culture war” in this country generally
refers to the conflict over matters involving sex, marriage, and the
family. In the 1970s organized reaction to the social earthquake of
the 1960s began to take shape, and one of the most visible of these
reactions was Jerry Falwell’s Moral Majority, the organization
that for a while more or less defined the term “Christian
Right” or “Religious Right.” It, and Rev. Falwell
himself, quickly became among the most hated entities in the country
in the eyes of sophisticated people. Falwell was widely viewed as a
hick, a bigot, and a fanatic. (When he died a few years ago, I was
both shocked and amused by the number of people who appeared to have
no particular religious belief but nevertheless were certain that
Falwell was in hell.)


I came to feel a bit sorry for Falwell, because I think he
fundamentally misconstrued the situation. He thought that a small
number of radicals—hippies, feminists, etc.—had seized control
of some of our most visible institutions (the press, especially), and
were forcing the agenda of the sexual revolution on a mostly
unwilling, mostly conservative Christian population. And that the
task before him was to awaken those people to the fact that their
society was under attack, and get them to use their political
strength to reverse the sexual revolution, at least to the extent
that it was becoming institutionalized, most obviously with the
legalization of abortion.


But he was wrong. The sexual revolution may have flowered in the
‘60s, and hippies and feminists may have been its most visible
advocates (along with Hugh Hefner), but its roots were much deeper.
And in any case much of the mainstream soon embraced it quite
readily. By the time Falwell attempted to rally socially conservative
Christians, they were not the majority (if they ever had been). And
although the Christian right became a serious political force, it has
at best only slowed the social revolution it was meant to reverse.


I think something similar is going on now with economic ideas. The
Tea Party and various free-market politicians are in a position
similar to that of the Christian Right. They believe that most
Americans still believe in the old concept of individual freedom
combined with responsibility, and that they interpret the American
ideal of liberty to mean, second only to self-government, economic
liberty; that they want the freedom to succeed economically according
to their natural talent and willingness to work hard. That they
recognize that things are not always going to work out well for
everyone in this system, and that such is the price of freedom. And
that they are willing to admit a role for a government safety net for
those who aren’t able to survive on their own in this system,
but envision the safety net as being of limited scope, and certainly
not something that encompasses everyone all the time.


I think there are strong reasons to doubt that most people feel
this way anymore. Part of the intensity of the social culture war
arises from the fact that neither side can quite believe that the
other really wants what it says it wants. In the sexual realm, for
instance, the religious conservative can’t believe that anyone
can truly fail to see that there’s something unhealthy in
homosexuality; the secular liberal can’t believe that anyone
can think there is. Likewise, in the economic realm, the Tea Partier
can’t believe that anyone of sound mind can fail to see the
essential rightness of the traditional American ideals of
independence, and the liberal (for want of a better word) can’t
believe that anyone of sound mind can fail to see the essential
rightness of the welfare state. Each believes that he has only to
sound the alarm, and the majority of Americans will rally to his
cause.


I have a feeling that the Tea Party and others of similar mind are
mistaken about the antagonism among the general population to the
welfare state. I don’t have time now to pursue my various
conjectures about why this is true, but I suspect that support for
measures that would actually shrink the scope of what the federal
government provides is actually pretty small. If you put the question
abstractly, yes, they’ll say they want to cut this or that, but
at the same time they reject cuts to anything that might benefit them
personally. And there’s the rub: almost all of us are now
caught up in the web of “benefits,” money handed to us by
the government directly or indirectly—and are faced with
financial pressures that make dependence, either on the government or
on a large-scale employer, the normal case.


This train of thought was started by a comment on the Caelum et
Terra blog (see sidebar) a week or two ago. I can’t remember now what post it
was on, so I can’t link to it, but it was by someone whose
husband is self-employed, and she was lamenting all the ways in which
her family is penalized financially for it. This sort of independence
should be something close to the American ideal, but almost
everything in our system now assumes as the norm that one works for a
large organization of some kind, and that the organization subsidizes
you financially beyond the cost of your actual salary. The two main
pieces of this are the Social Security tax, half of which is paid by
one’s employer, and health insurance, which is at least heavily
subsidized by the employer—or at least is widely considered the
employer’s responsibility, so that an employer who doesn’t
provide it is considered to be callous and unethical.


The independent contractor or small business owner not only has to
find a way to pay all this himself, but will usually pay much more
for health insurance, because he isn’t getting group rates—or
else take his chances on being able to pay for his own health care,
which is difficult and risky.


Almost everything in our system now is designed to discourage true
economic independence. Neither the government nor the big
corporations nor the labor unions have any interest in encouraging
it. I can think offhand of several people I know personally who are
in various undesirable or unwanted job situations purely because they
can’t afford not to have access to financial support that is
available only through some collective.


It is very difficult to get out of this web even if you want to,
because your participation in so much of it is forced, and the
sacrifice of foregoing the rewards is great. I’m a case in
point. In a few years I’ll be eligible for social security
(actually I already am, but at a reduced rate). I want to retire, but
should I really have a right to expect that? If I am still capable of
working at sixty-six, what right do I have to expect that younger
people should support me? How is this different from going on
welfare? This bothers me, but when the time comes, I’ll
probably take the money, telling myself that, after all, I have been
paying to support other retirees for most of the past forty years.
And the Tea Party itself seems to contain an awful lot of people who
are very exercised about preserving Medicare.


And that doesn’t take into account the large number of poor
or nearly poor people for whom dependence on the government is simply
the unquestioned normal way of life. (I’m not considering here
whether they could do otherwise; no doubt some could and some could
not, but that’s another question.) Or the corporations that
rely on complex tax breaks and subsidies and general cronyism. Or the
people who work directly for the government. Or those whose employers
are heavily dependent on government contracts or subsidies: again,
I’m a case in point, because the independent college I work for
would not be able to survive without government-subsidized financial
aid programs.


The independence that came with the territory of being a small
farmer or shopkeeper or artisan is now available only to those who
are unusually adventurous (or of course wealthy, but that’s
always true). Few of us even own the homes we live in; “home ownership” is
a euphemism for most of us most of the time, because the house was bought
with borrowed money that we’re still trying to pay off (or, often,
not even trying, but expecting to hop from one loan to another for the rest of our lives). The presumption that most people should be somewhat
independent, with a small minority needing assistance, has been
inverted.


All in all, I suspect that as the Tea Party leads the charge for
small government economic freedom, they’re not going to see, when they look behind them, nearly as many people following as they expected. As
with the moral components of the other culture war, the assumption
that most people want a society based on the sort of freedom the Tea
Party advocates may not be warranted. One can’t judge only by
the cultural climate as exemplified in the predominant cultural
expressions—the press, the entertainment industry, the
academy—but on the basis of those one would be justified in
supposing that sexual freedom is now the most important and essential
American freedom, and that other freedoms can and should be
sacrificed to it.


It’s always possible, some say probable, that the whole
structure will come tumbling down because the government doesn’t
actually have the money it dispenses to us. If so, that won’t
be a pretty sight, and it won’t be seen as liberating.

98 responses to “The Other Culture War”

  1. Francesca

    I always thought one of the truest things you ever said here was that the Moral Majority made a big mistake, imagining they were in the majority. Your analogous point about the Tea Party here sounds very likely to me. The thing is, the genuine desire for independence is an ethical one or has deep ethical underpinnings.

  2. Can you elaborate on that last sentence?

  3. Francesca

    You seem to have said that
    i) the MM were mistaken in imagining that they were in the majority. The time of majority acquiescence in Christian sexual ethics was long past by the time Falwell rose to prominece.
    ii) the Tea Party have likewise got it wrong if they imagine that most people in the USA really want to return to a way of life in which most people work for small, self-owned businesses and government is small.
    All I’m saying is I agree with ii) and one reason I agree is I think it takes a lot of moral backbone to work for a small or self-owned business – more than it does, say, to work for the public sector or to be the employee of shall we say a large wealthy university. In the not so distant past people had relatively little choice about this. There wasn’t a large public sector to work for, and there were not so many large wealthy institutions. Moral discipline was very strict for the young. For their lives would be unavoidably hard, and not only on a physical level. Only a tiny number of people are brought up like that any longer.
    Sorry. It is hopeless to try to expand on an intuition, and all I have in this area are intuitions, in this case that big government is the most significant idolatry of our age.

  4. I see. Yes, you’ve understood me correctly. I just wasn’t sure where you were placing that ethical dimension. You mean that a pretty strong personal ethic is required to support personal independence, right? If so I agree completely.
    I guess I’d have to ponder a bit over whether I think big government is the biggest idolatry, but it certainly is a big one.

  5. And btw “backbone” is a good word for it. A word you don’t hear as much as you used to.

  6. I think you are partially in error about the situation that Jerry Falwell faced. It is true that inhibitions which had been very much present in the culture at large as late as 1966 had dissipated by 1979 (most particularly inhibitions about divorce). However, the degree to which cultural expression and public policy were driven and had been driven by popular assent you exaggerate. A good deal of what counted as social policy and school curricula were being set by professional guilds, apparatchicks, judges, and the public interest bar. This hive has made itself immune to popular control through the dysfunctions of our political architecture and sheer fraud and double-dealing. That frustrated Falwell much more than popular opinion. If elected officials had had much to say about it, abortion would have been generally unlawful outside of California, schools would have been desegregated by open enrollment plans and have opened each day with generic protestant prayers. If the course of policy had followed polls, the priority of social policy after 1965 would have been crime control, troublemakers would have been booted out of secondary schools, and only incremental adjustments would have been made in matrimonial law. None of that is what happened.

  7. Louise

    The thing is, the genuine desire for independence is an ethical one or has deep ethical underpinnings.
    I think that is very true. To really go out and live such a life now, would require – in the first place – a lot of wisdom and secondly, a lot of courage and conviction. One would need to study very carefully, what all the principles would be and then put those principles into practice. Surely that would be almost impossible for a person with a modern education.

  8. Louise

    Moral discipline was very strict for the young. For their lives would be unavoidably hard, and not only on a physical level. Only a tiny number of people are brought up like that any longer.
    I think that’s true. As long ago as the 1890’s, Pope Leo XIII was lamenting three negative influences in modern life:
    1. Aversion to a simple and laborious life.
    2. An inordinate aversion to every form of pain.
    3. Forgetfulness of the afterlife.
    He proposed the mysteries of the Rosary as an antidote to these influences.
    Joyful mysteries as antidote to 1.
    Sorrowful for 2.
    Glorious for 3.
    St Paul tells us to live quiet and peaceful lives. I wonder if that’s even possible in the modern era, even with a sincere will to do so.
    Also, we know in any age, that virtuous men are fewer than the sinful, so that already means an uphill battle.
    Although:
    It is true that inhibitions which had been very much present in the culture at large as late as 1966 had dissipated by 1979 (most particularly inhibitions about divorce). However, the degree to which cultural expression and public policy were driven and had been driven by popular assent you exaggerate.
    This could well be true, but I can’t quite work out if it is.
    I’m old enough (41) to remember when divorce was still pretty shameful and even shocking (at least to a child, who was surrounded – at the time – by intact families). I do wonder whether the general relaxation of attitudes to divorce, which has definitely happened (I feel like I’m one of the few people left in my circle, who is still truly disturbed by it) has to do with compassion for the divorcees and the stigma they had. This compassion, however, seems to override the compassion we should equally feel for deserted spouses and the children of divorce. I’m just trying to get a feel for the reasons for the changes in attitude.
    I feel even worse about annulments.
    Truly, I long for a real restoration of marriage and Holy Matrimony.

  9. Louise

    I seem to be well into it up to my neck in Moral Philosophy. ๐Ÿ˜ฎ
    But it’s only b/c my heart aches.

  10. I can tell you a few of things about the divorce culture as it developed in my parents circle of friends ca. 1971:
    1. Antecedent to that, there had been a certain amount of divorce. However, divorce(e)s tended to disappear from the social circles they had been in up to that point. If you had a divorce(e) in your social circle, as a rule you did not know the previous spouse and generally both husband and wife were not voluble on the subject. Such antecedent marriages were almost uniformly childless, or the departing spouse allowed the adoption of the children (as did the first husband of Michael Dukakis’ wife).
    2. Husbands very seldom sued their wives for divorce. The few cases I can recall were men who had been abandoned. The abandonment was coincident with adultery.

    3. Wives more often sued their husbands, modally for alcoholism. A minority were coping with serial adulterers.

    All of which is to say that among a mess of bourgeois born in 1930 +/- 4 years, expressive divorce was unknown, most especially when you had children, but you had a good deal of divorce.

  11. The political economy you are describing is one where a crucial feature is cross-subsidy mediated by elected officials and maintained by organized appetites (lobbies). Some of the beneficiaries are numerous and vulnerable (e.g. the old and disabled). Many are not (public employees and their unions, higher education, agribusiness, real estate development, finance). This sort of thing tends to induce creeping economic sclerosis. Also, the economic crisis has exposed some of the sweet deals that have been had and there has already been a partially effective counter-reaction in some locales (Indiana and Wisconsin to name two). What makes the Obama Administration and parts of the congressional Democratic caucus so retrograde is their determination to keep their clientele at the trough, even as the country careers toward sovereign default.

  12. Louise

    Art, your remarks on divorce seem about right to me.
    All of which is to say that among a mess of bourgeois born in 1930 +/- 4 years, expressive divorce was unknown, most especially when you had children, but you had a good deal of divorce.
    I know only a few people in that age range who divorced and generally not among practicing Catholics of that age.
    “a good deal of divorce” = ?%
    Not 50%, I’d imagine!

  13. Sorry, I’ve been out, no time to reply at any length. I do agree, Art, that the responsibility for forcing many of these things on the populace rests with “the hive.” But I don’t think there was in general a great deal of desire and will in the majority of the populace to resist them.

  14. Francesca

    Yes, Mac, I’m saying that.
    Art Deco and Mac seem to disagree. Mac says that Falwell was wrong to think he was in the majority. AD says there was not in fact much public support for the shift (earthquake) in sexual ethics, and that “If elected officials had had much to say about it, abortion would have been generally unlawful outside of California, schools would have been desegregated by open enrollment plans and have opened each day with generic protestant prayers.”
    I think the thing is, everyone wanted everyone else to believe in strong sexual ethics without themselves doing so. They wanted life to go on as before without themselves believing and acting in the same ways as before. For example (outside sexual ethics), they may have wanted strong discipline in schools in the sense of voting for it if they ever had a chance, and saying conversationally they believed it, but they were not themselves prepared to discipline their own children, so that when they got to said schools they would be educable in the way the adults said they wanted children to be.

  15. I used to be involved in local politics. A comfortable majority of the populace (about 3/4ths) pays no attention to public affairs and cannot be mobilized for any purpose unless you undertake some discrete act or there is some discrete discovery that threatens a palpable disruption to their mundane routine. These can include:
    1. A discovery of poisons in the water table.
    2. Property tax hikes.
    3. Proposing to reassign their children to slum schools.
    Politicians can also ruin their prospects by committing some abuse of power which is curiously resonant. Mitt Romney’s predecessor as Governor of Massachusetts was dead meat when it came to light that she brought her children to the office and that there were patronage employees at the state house who had put in some time supervising them.

  16. Francesca

    In other words, I propose both that ‘Ice Storm’ is an accurate depiction of early 1970s sexual mores and that most of the characters in it could convincingly have been portrayed as depreciating promiscuity, expressive divorce, etc

  17. “a good deal of divorce” = ?%
    I think perhaps a quarter or so had been through divorce proceedings at some point in their life. That would include those who had had a fairly brief childless marriage (to someone unknown to the friends they made in middle age) and then a long and fruitful one. For those in the next set of cohorts up, you find those who had had ‘war marriages’ which ended up in the divorce courts just after the war. (See the film The Best Years of Our Lives for a depiction of one such).

  18. Sorry, now I’m at work and very busy, so can’t really say much, but:
    “…everyone wanted everyone else to believe in strong sexual ethics without themselves doing so.”
    I think this is an important part of it. And analogous to “cut all the govt spending that doesn’t affect me.”

  19. I think the thing is, everyone wanted everyone else to believe in strong sexual ethics without themselves doing so. They wanted life to go on as before without themselves believing and acting in the same ways as before. For example (outside sexual ethics), they may have wanted strong discipline in schools in the sense of voting for it if they ever had a chance, and saying conversationally they believed it, but they were not themselves prepared to discipline their own children, so that when they got to said schools they would be educable in the way the adults said they wanted children to be.
    I have no insights to offer about the state of mind of the populace at large. In my corner of the world, people were not like that, by and large.

  20. Francesca

    I used the example of children because I observed it as a child, in the 1960s. At that time, English children were still much more disciplined by their parents than American children. And English schools were at that time, much stricter, and also better than American schools. So I was, first, an English in the USA. I observed with great surprise the relationships between other children and their parents. Eventually, my parents despaired of the NY schools and sent us to boarding school in England. I could dine out on my descriptions of American schools.
    When I say English schools were better, I mean, for instance we read a Shakespeare play every year in English from age 10 to age 17. In the fourth form, aged 12-13 we also read Jane Eyre and Wuthering Heights and Tennyson. It was normal and unexceptional. Would American parents have said they wanted such an education? Probably yes. Would they have brought their children up in such a way as to be capable of it? In my opinion, the answer is no, from my observation.

  21. Francesca, my schooling included Shakespeare in about that quantum. I was not, by the standards of my grandparents or the aspirations of my mother and father, well-behaved. You have Advanced Placement examinations quite generally in secondary schools. The option of quality was there (at least in metropolitan areas in New York) for people who look for it. The trouble is, quality is not the default option in American schooling. With some qualifications, it should be. (I believe my mother and father did have a more rigorous education in the 1940s than I had a generation later, if I can judge from submissions of their’s which have survived).
    You mention the schools of the day. It is my wager that the breakdown of order in American schools after 1948 (and especially after 1965) was largely a “supply-side” phenomenon. The institutional culture of people in the education biz is something about which you need to ask. The dispositions of parents, not so much. The trouble my mother and her contemporaries faced was challenges to their authority and standards to which they were not optimally equipped to respond. Good behavior had been part of the air they breathed as youths. It was conventional, and, being conventional, was not something the reasons for which they had puzzled out. This did leave many at a disadvantage, a disadvantage to which they adjusted in ways that were on occasion unconstructive.

  22. Francesca

    Well Deccers, all I can say is your high school must have been very different from the one my parents pulled me out of in 1969!
    A few years ago I mentioned to a middle aged grandmother, very socially conservative, Protestant, from Pennsylvania that we did ‘Jane Eyre’ at school when we were 11 or 12. She replied, ‘you must have been advanced for your age’. All the assumptions which make it impossible to educate children to a high standard are built into the state, including the idea that children should read books which ‘fit their age’. But this is precisely the sort of person who deplores the collapse of standards in schools.

  23. Francesca

    Statement!
    Though the sentence with ‘state’ in it is not true up to a point, it’s not what I intended to write.

  24. I think my sister read Jane Eyre on her own when she was about nine or ten.
    I think you may be conflating two issues: behavioral norms and academic rigor. Deficits of the former cause much more discontent with the schools than deficits of the latter.

  25. Well, we can’t really do much more than exchange anecdotes about education. I’m pretty sure it varied a good deal regionally, though, as well as shifting over time. I know I’m older than Francesca and seem to be at least a bit older than Art. My pre-college education ran from roughly 1954-1966. It was all in the deep south, the first 9 years in a tiny rural school and the last 3 in a small town–not places where you would expect high education standards. I feel pretty safe in saying that both familial and school discipline were tougher then and there than in, say, NYC in the late ’60s. “the ’60s” had not yet happened for us in 1966. When I graduated from high school a boy could still be disciplined for having his shirttail out. The principal (always a man, often a coach) could and did use a wooden paddle (hurt like hell). Not sure if I ever knew that to be used on a girl. Parents were pretty much entirely on board with this.
    My rural school education was really not so bad, especially when you consider that some of the students were barely functional academically and would drop out as soon as they legally could. We had, for instance, in 8th & 9th grades, a science lab of sorts, and did actual though extremely simple experiments. But it was generally conceded that the town schools were better. We had an occasional bad teacher–an aunt of mine sent my cousins to school in town after one of them was marked off on a test for spelling a word correctly, and reprimanded for insisting that it was correct. I seem to remember there was another incident involving the placement of Mozambique off the coast of South America, or something of that sort (same teacher, I think).
    That school stopped at 9th grade, so people scattered to other schools for high school, depending on where they lived and what their parents wanted. Almost all went to another rural school. The town school I went to probably compared reasonably favorably with those in other parts of the country. I had 2 years of Latin and 2 years of German, for instance. As I recall, 9th grade was the point where English classes began to include something like adult literature–I have vivid memories of reading Dickens that year. I don’t think we had Shakespeare till 10th grade, but after that it was more than one a year. In that 3 years we read…let’s see…Macbeth, Hamlet, Julius Caesar, Othello, King Lear, Henry IV 1&2, I think Henry V…hmm, I can’t remember that we did a comedy. Also Oedipus Rex though I can’t think of any other classical works. I’m not sure if this town was unusual or not. No one seemed to think so, especially.
    But I remember as a college freshman comparing notes with a friend who had gone to a rural high school like the one most of my classmates continued at, and he said he had never read Shakespeare before college.
    One thing I’m sure of, though, is that educational standards were beginning to decline by the early ’70s, and discipline became more lax. So I don’t know how Francesca’s NYC high school might have compared with mine 5 years or so earlier.
    But anyway…I do think Francesca’s basic insight, that people engage in “do as I say not as I do” in what they advocate in the public sphere is a significant part of the reason why so many more people say they support the “conservative” (for lack of a better word) course in various areas but yet politicians are often penalized for attempting to implement it.
    Must get back to work now.

  26. Francesca

    Dec, my point is not the age anyone can read Jane Eyre. My point is that once people make assumptions such as, children should read appropriate children’s literature, their children’s education is doomed, whatever complaints they may make about falling standards.
    You cannot teach children to a high standard without the assumption of good behaviour as normal.

  27. Francesca

    Dec, I’m not ‘behavioral norms and academic rigor’. Behavioural norms are a necessary means to the end of academic rigour. To will the end is to will the means, and parents ceased to will the means whilst bemoaning the failure to achieve the ends.

  28. “parents ceased to will the means whilst bemoaning the failure to achieve the ends.”
    That’s certainly happening with voters in the matter of cutting government spending.

  29. Francesca

    Yes Mac, I agree. I’m not trying to derail the discussion, just giving an example from the only sphere I know, having been a student from 7 to 27 and a teacher from 27 to 51. I should, but I don’t really understand things like pensions or why people in the UK and the USA are angry about their pensions. I know I paid into a fund in the UK called ‘Superannuation’ and here I pay into a fund called ‘Fidelity.’ That’s all I know. Several times I tried to get taxi drivers to explain to me how it was that ‘Gordon Brown had stolen their pensions’, but a combination of their incoherence with rage and my financial stupidity made it impossible for me to understand.

  30. As somebody who spent the 70s in the People’s Republic of South Yorkshire, I find it very unlikely that the sort of bourgeois decadence portrayed in The Ice Storm could possibly represent “an accurate depiction of early 1970s sexual mores” in anything but the most limited sense that somebody, somewhere at that time might have adhered to such mores.

  31. Francesca

    I spent the era in NYC and London and it was what I saw.

  32. Francesca

    I watched Ice Storm after Tom Hibbs told me that, after seeing it in his class, students could hardly speak. They were numbed. It was too much like their own experience with their parents.

  33. I haven’t seen The Ice Storm but I just read a synopsis of it. I’m pretty certain that such things were not very common in most of middle-class middle-aged America at the time. Adultery happened, I’m equally sure, but not like this. I’m also willing to believe it was more widespread in more affluent and sophisticated parts of the country that were more in tune and sympathetic to the cultural revolution. I do remember hearing some wild stuff about some of the faculty in the university town where I lived then–from an acquaintance (female) who was having an affair with the wife of a prof who didn’t care because he was having an affair with so-and-so…
    However, the young people were starting to behave like the young people in the movie. I heard some of it from my younger siblings.
    Similarly about divorce, btw: my parents are a bit older than the age group Art mentioned somewhere below–born in the mid-1920s–but divorce was fairly rare in their crowd. I don’t mean just in the ’60s, I mean period–offhand I can only think of a couple. Almost everyone I went to school with through high school came from an intact family. But I think the rate was beginning to creep up among lower-middle and lower class people. As with schools, both these things vary a lot by class, region, etc.
    When did Tammy Wynette’s D-I-V-O-R-C-E come out?…1968, yeah, that fits.
    btw, Francesca, I didn’t think you were trying to derail the discussion.

  34. It sounds like an awful movie, btw–one of those American Beauty type exposes of the hollowness of the middle class. But that’s just judging by the synopsis.

  35. Well, I read a synopsis of the Ice Storm, but I recognize little. A modest minority of men were given to adultery, very much concealed from the younger generation. (We all found out about this person and that person years later). Another batch were quietly marinating themselves with alcohol, often unknown to close friends until late in the game. (And alcoholism was not a novelty in 1973). Transgressive sexual behavior and drug use you saw among adolescents and such, but it was atypical there except on a low level. Again, it was a challenge to the elder generation because that generation had little or no history of this sort of thing.
    Francesca, I have little doubt that systematized academic rigor requires some measure of order in a school. Like anything else, however, additional increments of order have diminishing returns.
    Again, I think what you call the ‘means’, the decline of order, was far more dismaying to the modal parent (ca. 1971) than what you call the ‘end’, decaying academic performance. I have little doubt that there were some increments of decline in the willingness of common-and-garden parents to impose standards. I cannot see how such increments could account for the wholesale breakdown of inner city schooling between the time my mother finished high school and the time I did.

  36. Francesca

    Mac, I have not seen American Beauty. I thought Ice Storm was absolutely brilliant.

  37. Where does Hibbs teach?

  38. Francesca

    He teaches at Baylor. I first heard of him because of his movie reviews on National Review online. I invited him over to Aberdeen to a conference we had on ‘Universities and Theology’ – and he gave a good piece on ‘Children of Men’. I have read his book on ‘Arts of Darkness’ (on contemporary ‘dark’ movies), and also his very good book on the use of comedy in the Summa Contra Gentiles. I have not read anything else. He has a book called ‘Shows about Nothing’ but from the blurb, I’ve never seen any of the shows it is complaining about (Friends, etc). I was very disappointed that he was too busy at Baylor to revise his conference paper for the ‘book of the conference papers’. It just arrived, published this morning, and it is excellent. But I wish we’d got his piece too.

  39. Francesca

    I just realised the question ‘where does Hibbs teach’ might be expressing the thought, ‘where the hell do the students have parents like that’. And ‘Baylor’ would somehow be a LOL or droll answer to that question. I believe he said he was teaching at BC when he taught that film course, but I could have got that wrong.

  40. Oh yeah, NRO–I knew I’d heard his name. I think I’ve found his reviews pretty good. American Beauty is not all bad but I thought it was pretty cheap in a lot of ways. That’s pretty interesting that Baylor students would see their parents in The Ice Storm. Of course for his students this would not be the ’70s–since the movie came out in 1997 it had to be after then that he showed the movie to students, so at the earliest they would only have been conscious of this stuff by the mid-’80s or so.

  41. Well, yes, that is more or less what I was wondering, and was going to be surprised but not totally floored if it was Baylor students. BC = Boston College? More what I would have expected.

  42. Francesca

    No I am saying I think he said it of Boston College Students, not Baylor students.
    Today he has a review up on First Things of The Tree of Life

  43. Francesca

    We cross posted! I thought you were asking, as a matter of general interest, where does Hibbs teach. I thought maybe you’d seen his piece today on FT then I mentioned him, so you wondered…. So I just gave the anwer ‘Baylor’. The I realised you were wondering about the provinence of the students who identified with The Ice Storm. Hibbs taught first for some years at Boston College, then became a dean at Baylor.

  44. Francesca

    Yes Dec, I am sure the parents were more concered about behaviour than about standards. I’m also sure that the levels of decorum which these parents exacted in the home were not such as to ensure the kind of behaviour they wanted in the schools.
    But I admit the level of demonstration in this discussion is weak by Aristotelian standards ๐Ÿ™‚ It is not really a syllogistic argument, when one person is saying anecdotally they remember it like this, and another says they remember it like this and btw they saw this movie which correlates with that …

  45. I’ve been taking the point about schooling to be an analogy pointing to the original idea about govt spending, not a final disposition of the question of what went wrong with the schools.
    I’m about to go home, so no more confusing cross-posts for me for a while.:-) What you said in your comment that starts “We cross-posted” is what I meant.
    I’ll read that review of Tree of Life later. Finally watched the trailer the other day and was very intrigued.

  46. I’m also sure that the levels of decorum which these parents exacted in the home were not such as to ensure the kind of behaviour they wanted in the schools.
    But it was not ‘these parents’. It was the parents of the 5-6% who were causing a real problem. I have little doubt that most of these last were non-feasant (but not all were).
    It is not really a syllogistic argument, when one person is saying anecdotally they remember it like this, and another says they remember it like this and btw they saw this movie which correlates with that …
    No it is not. Personal experiences are hypthesis formers and that’s all. By the way, you brought up the Ice Storm. Were it me, I would have suggested Blackboard Jungle as (unintentionally) instructive.
    Again, and with reference to you both, I think ‘do as I say and not as I do’ does not in the least capture the thought processes of my parents’ contemporaries. A modest minority misbehaved in novel ways; few I knew of were given to discoursing at all on the subject of sexual ethics or the binding quality of marriage vows. (There was some (ill-framed) discussion of the creature). My father wanted me to do my chores when told, quit giving my mother lip, and quit picking fights with my teachers and with the school librarian (and by extension, the vice principal). He wanted other things as well, but he was less transparent about those things.

  47. Rob G

    I don’t think that ‘American Beauty’ was as negative as Hibbs made it out to be. Also, he partly bases his interpretation of the film’s “nihilism” on a rather major error in observation about the ending.
    I’m really looking forward to seeing ‘Tree of Life’ when (if?) it comes here.

  48. I’m not following your “do as I say…” point, Art. That your parents and/or others like them weren’t interested in the quality of education?

  49. I don’t know what Hibbs said about American Beauty but I don’t think it was nihilist. The opposite, in fact, if my memory is correct, which it may not be. What I didn’t like about it was the anti-culture cliches: middle-class people are superficial and/or crazy, except for the gay couple; the military guy is a repressed homosexual; etc.

  50. I started to read Hibbs on Tree of Life but it looks like it says more than I want to hear before seeing it. It is going to show here, in a little theater that I didn’t think had the technical equipment for big-time movies.

  51. Maclin, you said:
    But anyway…I do think Francesca’s basic insight, that people engage in “do as I say not as I do” in what they advocate in the public sphere is a significant part of the reason why so many more people say they support the “conservative
    I do not see the bourgeois world of 1971 (as I knew it) to have been composed of people who complained but were unwilling to govern their households or people whose hypocrisies exceeded common-and-garden severity.
    1. Most were following conventional standards of conduct and continued to do so throughout their lives.
    2. It was atypical to give explicit moral instruction or to have those sorts of conversations. Not unknown, just not worked into mundane life. There was not a whole lot of ‘as I say’.

    3. Most did see their adolescent children as somewhat alien and were not self-confident on how to instruct them. (Which is different than non-feasance).

    With regard to my parents: they valued academic achievement. My mother never would have approved of Amy Chua, however.

  52. “I do not see the bourgeois world of 1971 (as I knew it) to have been composed of people who complained but were unwilling to govern their households or people whose hypocrisies exceeded common-and-garden severity.”
    I think we’ve wandered into a little cul-de-sac here, or something–I’m not stating anything in particular about the bourgeois world of 1971, apart from my observation of it. At any rate I’m not drawing any particular conclusion from it. As I said, I think the “do as I say…” syndrome is active with respect to govt spending, and I didn’t mean to be making any point other than that.

  53. Louise

    My point is that once people make assumptions such as, children should read appropriate children’s literature, their children’s education is doomed, whatever complaints they may make about falling standards.
    You cannot teach children to a high standard without the assumption of good behaviour as normal.

    I think that is true. At least, I know children can be taught Latin Grammar as soon as they can read (age 4 or 5) and master the Baltimore Catechism etc with a view to have them reading the ancients in the original languages in their teens and study Theology and Philosophy etc, but it definitely requires a greater level of discipline (in the fullest sense of the word) than my brother and I had in the seventies and eighties.

  54. Louise

    I thought “Ice Storm” was depressingly good.
    It reminds me of an article I read a few years back by a non-religious guy who nevertheless believed in the Natural Law. He said that watching people deliberately break such laws (eg committing adultery) with the view that no, they themselves did not have to obey such laws, were like people who deliberately walk into heavy traffic fully expecting that everything will stop and they will come to no harm. Invariably, they get hit by a Mack truck. God’s laws are exactly like this. The writer said that he wondered maybe whether we should just laugh at the insanity of such people. (He was not really talking about people who give in to a temptation in a moment of weakness, he was talking about people who very deliberately flout Natural Law). I wondered whether the laughing was perhaps a bit harsh, but then I read something very similar in either the Psalms or the Book of Wisdom some time later. Anyway, I haven’t quite got to the point of laughing, but I do tend to watch on with a fair degree of horror (but only when it’s “in my face” – I make a point of not knowing other people’s business these days. Apart from anything else, it’s too emotionally draining, and I have no control over such things).
    Anyway, “Ice Storm” just confirmed the idea that no matter your class/social status etc, adultery is for dummies.
    Really, Mark Shea is right, Sin makes us Stupid.

  55. Louise

    As for the Progressives, I am currently at the point of saying, “just do whatever you want, you dickheads.”
    And then the collapse will come. It won’t be pretty, but this is a Vale of Tears anyway…

  56. Louise

    But I admit the level of demonstration in this discussion is weak by Aristotelian standards
    What! In a combox! Never!

  57. Louise

    My father wanted me to do my chores when told, quit giving my mother lip, and quit picking fights with my teachers and with the school librarian (and by extension, the vice principal). He wanted other things as well, but he was less transparent about those things.
    sounds like a good bloke!

  58. Francesca

    Louise “I thought “Ice Storm” was depressingly good.”
    That’s the perfect description of this kind of movie. It applies also eg to Little Miss Sunshine.
    My teacher, Louise Cowan, didn’t like American Beauty, so I didn’t see it.

  59. Very busy again today, so you won’t be hearing much from me. I’ll look in on my lunch break.

  60. “Invariably, they get hit by a Mack truck.”
    “Experience keeps a dear school, but a fool will learn in no other.” I think that’s Benjamin Franklin, or one of his proverbs.

  61. Louise

    Sadly, many fools don’t even learn from experience. ๐Ÿ˜ฆ
    Oh yes, “Little Miss Sunshine!” I don’t remember it well, but it was definitely depressing from memory. I can’t remember much about it. What did you think was good about it Francesca?
    I only ever saw snatches of “American Beauty” and that was enough. More than enough.

  62. Yeah, they think they just weren’t doing it right…

  63. Btw, Francesca, it would be interesting to know what Louise Cowan thought of American Beauty. Do you remember anything in particular she said? I would defend it to someone who totally condemned it, and attack it to someone who thought it was just wonderful.

  64. Rob G

    “I would defend it to someone who totally condemned it, and attack it to someone who thought it was just wonderful.”
    Exactly the way I feel about it. BTW, I’ve met a lot of people who seriously disliked it but not many who thought it wonderful. Most of the time when I’ve been in discussions about it I’ve been defending.
    Hated ‘Little Miss Sunshine.’

  65. Rob G

    I’ve never seen ‘Ice Storm’ or have had any desire to, actually, but I don’t, in general, hate depresssing movies. A favorite of mine from the last couple years is ‘Snow Angels,’ which is a real downer. But the performances are so good and it’s so well done that I don’t mind the negative aspect. Part of this I’m sure is due to the fact that I find parts of it very moving.

  66. It won’t surprise anybody to hear that “depressing” is not a discouraging review for me. Depends a lot on what kind of depressing. I don’t like movies (or novels) where people just sort of statically suffer. But if there’s a narrative of some kind–meaning some sort of real movement–especially if you end up with at least some glimmer of redemption–it’s fine. I mean…Bergman.
    I treasure the memory of a co-worker’s description, years ago of one of Woody Allen’s serious movies as “the most depressing, boring, non-average thing” she’d ever seen. I wanted to form a DBNA club.
    Descriptions of Little Miss Sunshine made me not want to see it.
    One movie that I thought was really good but which was very bleak all the way to the end was A Simple Plan. In that case, the bleakness is justified by the moral power.

  67. Louise

    Yeah, they think they just weren’t doing it right…
    hehehe. Now, that is funny. ๐Ÿ™‚

  68. Rob G

    Yes, in order for me to enjoy a bleak film the bleakness must be mitigated somehow, either by something redemptive or by an appropriate moral depth.

  69. Francesca

    I watched ‘I Confess’ (suggested by Rob G) last night and it was great and perfect for the course. The discussion has been immensely helpful to my planning. It was especially useful to find popular films. I thought last night after seeing the Hitchcock film, that although one could frame the question, ‘the students are so provincial and philistine one must find some popular films for them to watch’, it would be equally true to say that the best popular films (like those of Hitchcock) are as good as ‘art house’ ones, and that it is simply bad pedagogy to begin students on films which contain elements any beginner will find offputting, like subtitles or an off beat plot.
    I can’t remember what Louise Cowan said about American Beauty. Sometimes if I put it out of mind something from the past will download, so maybe I tell you later.
    I loved Little Miss Sunshine, and have seen it four times. I am glad not to know Prof Cowan’s view on it! I showed it to my parents in England and I suspect their reaction was like Rob’s – anyhow they didn’t laugh. I laughed like a drain all the way through, even on the third viewing, on an airplane.

  70. I’d already forgotten that I Confess was Hitchcock. Hitchcock before he got all weird and genuinely creepy.

  71. Re “they weren’t doing it right”–I did mean it to be funny, more or less, but actually I think there’s a serious point there. I’ve often suspected that the weird fixation on youthful sex on the part of older people–feminists, movie makers, et.al.–might come partly from a feeling that their own sexual life was spoiled by their elders, and if they’d just had the right combination of instruction, birth control, lack of religiously-induced hangups, etc., their early experiences would have been so much better. And so they’re trying to furnish young people with all that and sort of relive their own youth through them. Or, in the case of artists, re-imagine it.

  72. Louise

    Re “they weren’t doing it right”–I did mean it to be funny, more or less, but actually I think there’s a serious point there. I’ve often suspected that the weird fixation on youthful sex on the part of older people–feminists, movie makers, et.al.–might come partly from a feeling that their own sexual life was spoiled by their elders, and if they’d just had the right combination of instruction, birth control, lack of religiously-induced hangups, etc., their early experiences would have been so much better.
    Not that I gave it as much thought at the time, but I’m sure there was within me an understanding of exactly this. And I’m fairly certain they’re wrong about that too – I mean that young people are now “free” to have a blast. I just don’t see it. I see a lot of very depressed people with all kinds of emotional hang-ups. And I see a lot of shallowness.
    For example, I love being married. I love my husband, I love the status, I love the feeling of being loved and cared for, the feelings of being safe, secure and provided for and knowing that any child born to this marriage will be loved and cared for. Now, compare that to casual sex.

  73. Janet

    Francesca, I remembered another movie that might be good–Amazing Grace
    AMDG

  74. Francesca

    Thanks Janet

  75. “Experience is a good teacher, but few of her pupils escape without damage or disgrace.” (Richard Verstegan, ca. 1620)

  76. I wouldn’t be surprised if the same basic idea could be found in a Greek or Roman source. The particular formulation I quoted apparently is indeed Ben Franklin.

  77. Janet

    When I was in my early 20s I figured out that if I profited from other people’s experience it would be a lot less painful. So far that has proved to be right.:-)
    AMDG

  78. I wanted to say “clever girl” to that, but the phrase always makes me think of that scene from Jurassic Park. So: clever Janet!

  79. Janet

    And I’m trying so hard to learn not to eat people.
    AMDG

  80. Louise

    I’m glad you’re trying, Janet. I’m very relieved to hear it.

  81. Louise

    Re: movies for Francesca’s students: What about “Black Robe”? Has that been suggested?

  82. Francesca

    Louise, thanks for the suggestion. I now have too many, but that’s good.

  83. Successfully, I trust, Janet?

  84. Louise

    I’m glad you have an over-abundance of movies to choose from, Francesca!

  85. ‘Tree of Life’ is showing here in Pittsburgh — hoping to see it this week, perhaps even tonight. I’ll report back in due course.

  86. I’ll be very interested in your report. Looks like I’ll be seeing it the 1st week of August.

  87. Francesca

    Answering Maclin’s question about who knew: this journalist points out that the then editor, at least, must have known. She can’t have thought those stories were being ‘brought in the window by fairies’
    http://www.nytimes.com/2011/07/11/business/media/a-tabloid-shame-exposed-by-honest-rivals.html?nl=todaysheadlines&emc=globaleua2

  88. I’ll have to wait till later to read the article, but as to the fairies…heh…

  89. Wow. “And Rebekah Brooks, chief executive of News International and previous editor of The News of the World, responded by saying that it was ‘inconceivable’ that she knew of the hacking.”
    All together now: “You keep using that word….

  90. Hello,
    Perhaps anyone could explain to me what is wrong about homosexuality?
    So I can comprehend how can anyone in good faith can hold this view.
    SamR

  91. Well, that’s not a question that can be satisfactorily answered quickly, and from the way you put it I’m doubtful that you would be satisfied with the answer anyway. But, to approach it at the most fundamental level, I think it’s sort of obvious on the face of it that there’s something amiss with it. The whole human sexual apparatus is so clearly oriented toward reproducing the species, that it seems intuitively obvious that the sexual drive (both physical and emotional) is misdirected when its object is a person of the same sex.
    So from that point of view I think it’s “wrong” in the sense of being incorrect, as when you add a column of numbers and get the wrong answer. To go from that to “wrong” in the moral sense is another step, but is based on that one. I think if one does not see the first type of wrong it’s very unlikely that one would see the second type.
    That said, it’s equally obvious that some people are born with the propensity for this misdirection, or have early experiences that form them that way. So, not being a choice, the impulse itself is not morally wrong.

  92. Surely the onus is to show what’s right about it?

  93. In a sane world, yes, that would be true.

  94. Louise

    So glad you said that, Paul, I couldn’t think of anything that wasn’t snarky and it’s not like we need more snark.

  95. That may have been sort of a drive-by comment, and the guy never came back to see the answer.

  96. your resident film & theology expert

    Heroically irrelevant remark: I love the scene in The Wire where the really bad gang tries to do a ‘drive by’ shooting, like in the movies, and discovers it’s really difficult to hit someone from a moving vehicle.
    Well said, Maclin and Paul and Louise.

  97. “Heroically irrelevant” is a great phrase. I’m not sure I remember that scene. Is that the one where they almost shot Omar’s mother (or was it grandmother?)? and bought her a new hat to replace the one they’d put a hole in?

  98. your resident film & theology expert

    I think they failed to shoot anyone. I don’t think it’s the scene with Omar’s mother. I plan to watch the whole thing again, but I put it off so I don’t spoil it for myself with overviewing.

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