Light On Dark Water

Some People Think Tolkien Is Boring

And difficult.

I had a surprising, if not startling, conversation a couple of weeks ago with several younger people, by which I mean people in their 30s. All three of them (I think there were only three) were of the opinion that Tolkien is a very boring writer. They had tried to read The Lord of the Rings and either given up on it or slogged through till the end without, as far as I could tell, any great enjoyment. One allowed that if you could force yourself to get past the early chapters it became more interesting.

I was fairly close to speechless; "horror-stricken" is not much of an exaggeration. There are two kinds of people from whom I would have expected that sort of reaction: those for whom any very demanding book would be too much, and those whose taste in literature is for the naturalistic and who find both Tolkien's imaginary world and his style silly and juvenile. I've known people both sorts, and I understand their reactions, even if I don't share them.

But these are intelligent people who read a lot; one of them races through dense works on theology and liturgy that would put me to sleep, or perhaps make my head hurt; another is a graduate of a rather demanding math-and-science oriented college. And all of them read fantasy and science-fiction by other writers: for instance, more or less the complete works of Orson Scott Card, who although he is not Tolkien is not a simplistic writer.

I don't get it. I find it hard to imagine reading more than a few pages of The Lord of the Rings and not wanting to plunge ahead with all speed. I seem to remember that I didn't take quite as readily to The Hobbit, because it seemed more of a children's story, but it didn't take long for me to be fully caught up in it.

What baffles me most is the opinion of a pretty literate person that Tolkien is somehow demanding–that his style requires effort, and his storytelling is dull. Personally I can't think of many books that gave me more pure pleasure in the reading than The Lord of the Rings. I'm tempted to blame movies, TV, the Internet and most particularly the Tolkien movies for making the younger generation unable to appreciate the books. But there are plenty of young people who do appreciate them.

At least I think there are.

At least I hope there are.

I mean, I know of a few, but….

***

I didn't know about this; missed it by three days. Appropriate that it's the feast of the Annunciation.

MEnews_TRD_green

Maclin Horton
,

78 responses to “Some People Think Tolkien Is Boring”

  1. Fr. Matt Venuti

    Yes, that would be me. I want to like Tolkien, I really do. But as you said, it takes me significantly less effort to read a theology book by Hans Urs von Balthasar then it does to read the first chapter or two of Lord of the Rings. The story sounds fantastic even if my only take away from the movies was “THROW IT IN AND GO HOME!”
    I also confess I have never made it more than a few chapters into War and Peace.
    On the other hand, I do enjoy whispering in Latin for extended periods of time.
    Must be my youth.

    Reply
  2. Mac

    This was Venuti bait, obviously–good to know you’re reading. 🙂
    ” significantly less effort to read a theology book by Hans Urs von Balthasar then it does to read the first chapter or two of Lord of the Rings”
    I just cannot comprehend that. Although…this hadn’t occurred to me: perhaps your musical taste has ruined your literary taste.

    Reply
  3. Robert Gotcher

    My recollection is that Grumpy isn’t a big Tolkien fan. Isn’t that right?
    Mac, of course, I can’t comprehend your relative coolness towards the Beatles, either.
    Desert Island = bible, liturgy of the hours, Tolkien, Mozart, and the Beatles

    Reply
  4. Robert Gotcher

    And Vivaldi and a Latin dictionary, since my office would be in Latin.

    Reply
  5. Mac

    Oh no! Not the Desert Island list! Now I’m going to be obsessed for the next day or so until I define mine.

    Reply
  6. Mac

    And yes, that is correct about Grumpy. I think this Sunday is Laetare Sunday, right? She usually breaks her fast then, so maybe she’ll drop by and chime in.

    Reply
  7. Will

    As a 34-year-old (depends on who you ask whether that qualifies as “young”), I find this entire post incomprehensible. I will say that I think the movies changed the way people view the whole thing though, what with the pointy ears and everything. What other movie/TV characters can you think of with pointy ears, and what do people think about people who watch that?

    Reply
  8. Fr. Matt Venuti

    At least I have the good sense to like the Beatles, unlike some people. As to music ruining my taste for Tolkien, I think that’s 100% wrong, as much of what I listen to was influenced by him. One of my favorite bands is called Marillion, and I have a concept record by a group who actually tackled the Silmarillion, because they thought the Ring Trilogy was too obvious.
    I’m also pleased to see that your readers know that in addition to your ambivilance towards the Beatles, your lack of love for Latin liturgy is worrisome too.

    Reply
  9. Fr. Matt Venuti

    In offline conversation, Mac has essentialy dared me to post my desert island list, hoping it will expose my bad taste. As you can see, I am easliy baited, so…here are my ten books (or sets) and records. You all can decide if this disqualifies me from either literary commentary or priestly service.
    Books:
    1- Bible RSVCE 1st Edition
    2 – LoTH
    3 – 1961 Breviarium Romanum
    4 – 1962 Missale Roman (Benzinger reprint)
    5 – 1962 St. Andrew’s Dialy Missal
    6 – The Hymnal 1940
    7 – 1928 Book of Common Prayer
    8 – Orson Scott Card – The Ender Quintet
    9 – CS Lewis – The Chronicles or Narnia
    10 – Edward Rutherford – Sarum
    Music
    1 – Def Leppard – Hysteria
    2 – Beatles – Rubber Soul
    3 – Metallica – Master of Puppets
    4 – Marillion – Clutching at Straws
    5 – Taylor Swift – Fearless
    6 – John Prine -Self Titled
    7 – Aerosmith – Get Your Wings
    8 – Mozart’s Requiem (Boston Baroque Martin Pearlman)
    9 – Thin Lizzy – Johnny the Fox
    10 – Savatage – Streets

    Reply
  10. Robert Gotcher

    John Prine!

    Reply
  11. Fr. Matt Venuti

    I assume that is approval of Mr. Prine? I saw him live about 10 years ago. He sounds like he has been chain smoking and gargling glass for the past 40 years. It was excellent.

    Reply
  12. Mac

    Your book list is ok but your music list is like a list of favorite drinks that includes both 20-year-old single malt scotch and Everclear cut with Red Dagger.
    In heaven the only language spoken will be Shakespearean English.

    Reply
  13. Fr. Matt Venuti

    I hate scotch.

    Reply
  14. Mac

    I’m laughing about those pointy ears, Will.

    Reply
  15. Mac

    Well, you get the idea (re scotch)–fill in your own high-class drink. I’ll assume you have one.
    Now, here’s why I have a lot of trouble with the desert island thing. I can’t do top 10, for one thing. I was having this conversation with someone at work several years ago, about music only, and first I had to have separate lists for different types of music, then I had to expand it to 25, then I had to bend the rules to allow selection of tracks from multiple albums to count as one. Then multiple albums… Here’s the list.

    Reply
  16. Fr. Matt Venuti

    The Venuti family station wagon growing up had a Vulcan Science Academy sticker on it.

    Reply
  17. Mac

    I’m not at all surprised.

    Reply
  18. Mac

    But your family didn’t go to Trek conventions, or dress up as characters, did they? I hope…

    Reply
  19. Fr. Matt Venuti

    Sadly, yes, my parents went to conventions. Really, all things considered, I’m very well adjusted.

    Reply
  20. Stu

    And what about Al Stewart anyway? Is that the Year of the Cat guy, Mac? I will stand by The Lamb Lies Down on Broadway by Genesis as my Number One desert island pick! 🙂

    Reply
  21. Art Deco

    I’m a half generation older than your interlocutor and I found Tolkien stupefying as a youngster (preferring popular science and history). My sister ate up everything he wrote and also the Chronicles of Narnia. I read all of C.S. Lewis but the Narnia books (but at a much later age).

    Reply
  22. Robert Gotcher

    I just remember listening to Prine over 30 years ago when I was in college. I remember thinking him funny, but not liking his music so much. I just haven’t heard of him much since them. Nostalgia for my coffee house days.

    Reply
  23. Mac

    “Really, all things considered….”
    heh. Yes, that was a lot to overcome.:-)
    I haven’t heard that much of Prine. What I have heard was good but not my favorite.

    Reply
  24. Mac

    Yes, Al Stewart is the “Year of the Cat” guy, but there’s a whole lot more to him than that. I don’t really care for his voice; if not for that he would probably make my list. One of these days I’ll give Lamb another shot. Somehow Genesis has never really clicked with me, at least not the couple of albums I’ve heard.
    If I started a music list today, it would be somewhat different from the one I linked to. I’d probably find room for something by Tristania, for instance.

    Reply
  25. Mac

    “I found Tolkien stupefying as a youngster…”
    Does that imply a change later on? Or was that the end of it? Anyway, I’m not too surprised that Tolkien is not your cup of tea, as you don’t seem to be a literary sort. Still, “stupefying” is hard to comprehend.

    Reply
  26. Robert Gotcher

    I’d like to see a study that correlates what books of the Bible one is attracted to with whether one likes The Lord of the Rings or not.

    Reply
  27. Mac

    What would you expect to see? For me it’s the New Testament and the Wisdom books.

    Reply
  28. Fr. Matt Venuti

    Anybody want to hear my speech on why the Phil Collins era of Genesis is better, a Trick of the Tail being their best record?

    Reply
  29. Mac

    Although I’m not that familiar with Genesis, I’ve heard enough remarks from fans over the years to recognize that as a plainly heretical view. With your heterodoxy made clear, by all means state your view, in order that the faithful may learn to recognize error.

    Reply
  30. Robert Gotcher

    Not sure what I’d expect to see, although I’m with you on the Wisdom books, if that’s any indication.
    The New Testament is a big area.

    Reply
  31. Paul

    Yes, I’m curious as to what correlation one might expect between favourite Bible books and liking Tolkien.

    Reply
  32. Mac

    I was thinking, Robert, that you might be expecting a connection between the Old Testament chronicles and LOTR. But the chronicles and law books are my least favorite. The prophets I guess are in the middle.

    Reply
  33. Paul

    I have to say, I am a big fan of Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Judges and Kings. But the thing about Tolkien is that there’s plenty of that in some plot strands, while other plot strands are more intimate, reflective, individual – and resonate more with Wisdom or Job or the Suffering Servant.

    Reply
  34. Robert Gotcher

    Interestingly, the Jews put the chronicles and the wisdom books in the same category –the writings (Ketuvim).
    According to Wikipedia:
    The Three Poetic Books (Sifrei Emet)
    Tehillim (Psalms) תְהִלִּים
    Mishlei (Book of Proverbs) מִשְלֵי
    Iyyôbh (Book of Job) אִיּוֹב
    The Five Megillot (Hamesh Megillot)
    Shīr Hashīrīm (Song of Songs) or (Song of Solomon) שִׁיר הַשִׁירִים (Passover)
    Rūth (Book of Ruth) רוּת (Shābhû‘ôth)
    Eikhah (Lamentations) איכה (Ninth of Av) [Also called Kinnot in Hebrew.]
    Qōheleth (Ecclesiastes) קהלת (Sukkôth)
    Estēr (Book of Esther) אֶסְתֵר (Pûrîm)
    Other Books
    Dānî’ēl (Book of Daniel) דָּנִיֵּאל
    ‘Ezrā (Book of Ezra-Book of Nehemiah) עזרא
    Divrei ha-Yamim (Chronicles) דברי הימים
    Of course, J.R.R. Tolkien translated the Book of Jonah for the 1966 edition of the Jerusalem Bible.

    Reply
  35. Fr. Matt Venuti

    I enjoy Samuel/Kings, 1&2 Maccabbees, and the Wisdom Books. I really don’t like slogging my way through Job, and I see a connection between Job and Tolkien’s writing.

    Reply
  36. Mac

    heh
    I don’t especially see that connection but it’s interesting that you do, since I like both.

    Reply
  37. Art Deco

    No, not ambitious to revisit matters re Tolkien. You are right, my sister always has had more of a head for imaginative literature than I ever did. I did read C.S. Lewis’ fiction in my middle 30s, avoiding Narnia. Also some Graham Greene and all of Flannery O’Connor’s work. My forays into Chesterton were his essays, not his detective fiction.

    Reply
  38. Mac

    The essays are the best of Chesterton, in my opinion.

    Reply
  39. Paul

    I wonder if it’s the deliberate archaicism of the language that some people find hard going. In that respect it might be more revealing which Bible translation people like (King James/Douai/Jerusalem/RSV/NIV/Good News) than which individual books.

    Reply
  40. Mac

    That’s plausible in the abstract, but Tolkien’s language, at least in LOTR, really isn’t archaic, especially in the early chapters. It gets a bit more antique later on, but still nowhere near Elizabethan. However, for what it’s worth, I prefer the Biblical translations in the KJV line. But then so does Fr. Venuti, who lists the BCP in his top ten books.

    Reply
  41. Louise

    I prefer Chesterton’s essays to his fiction.
    And speaking of Chesterton, didn’t he once quip that if he were stranded on a desert island he would want a book about ship building?
    And yes, that is correct about Grumpy. I think this Sunday is Laetare Sunday, right? She usually breaks her fast then, so maybe she’ll drop by and chime in.
    The devotees of this blog have been around for quite a while – their habits being so well known. 🙂
    I read a few chapters of The Return of the King a little while ago. I had never read the books before and wanted to check out something about the ending. I enjoyed what I read. Perhaps I’ll have to give the whole thing a go soon. But I read very little fiction these days.
    I think I would want The Beatles on a desert island.

    Reply
  42. Louise

    I should put them on right now!

    Reply
  43. Mac

    Never read it?!? I am very surprised. Let me know what you think if/when you do.
    If you count the first couple of years when it was not technically a blog, Light On Dark Water has been around for 10 years now.

    Reply
  44. Mac

    It being Laetare Sunday, I took a break from my no-pop-music discipline and listened to the only Genesis album I have on cd, Selling England By the Pound. I think that was only the second time I’ve heard it. I like it, especially instrumentally. Not real wild about the vocals, and could do without “The Battle of Epping Forest.”

    Reply
  45. Louise

    Yes, it surprises me that I have not read LOTR!

    Reply
  46. Craig

    I have to admit that I am one of those for whom reading about Tolkien is actually more attractive than reading Tolkien himself. I love the story and the characters of LOTR, and I love the imaginative scope, and I love what Tolkien was trying to do, but the actual execution leaves me a little cool. I think it’s mostly a matter of style for me: I find his storytelling, on a page by page basis, a little plodding, and the tone a bit flat.
    I hope I won’t be barred from further commentary on this blog.

    Reply
  47. Mac

    Et tu! You’re almost the last one I would have expected to hear this from. But never fear, no punitive action will be taken; I will merely sigh heavily, perhaps ostentatiously, as I do with Fr. Venuti. I seem to recall some decidedly disrespectful (to Tolkien) remarks from Grumpy, and am still willing to consider her literary recommendations.

    Reply
  48. Craig

    Like I said, I do consider myself a Tolkien enthusiast — I’ve read all of his major works and many of the minor ones, and I even have those Middle Earth glossaries, etc. — but I just find I have to push myself a little when I’m reading the books. I actually like his poetry more than his prose.
    The really great thing about Tolkien, though, are those movies!
    (ducking)

    Reply
  49. Craig

    Also, my grammar are real good.

    Reply
  50. Mac

    Sorta like me and Dostoevsky, then? That’s more comprehensible, though still puzzling to me.
    Yeah, the great significance of the books is their serving as a jumping-off point for Peter Jackson’s genius. Just think: if Tolkien hadn’t written The Lord of the Rings, we’d never have had The Desolation of Smaug. That’s a heart-rending thought.

    Reply
  51. Shinrin Yoku

    Well, I have read the first two books of the trilogy, when I was 12, I guess. I did not find it that demanding, yet something was missing – emotional investment on my part. Perhaps there was no character I could deeply relate to? (I was heavily invested in HP world back then, perhaps there was no room in my heart left.)
    But my impression of Tolkien via my young adult lenses is consistent with this view (and yes, I do prefer G.R.R.M. for this reason):
    http://qr.ae/TUNN0L
    I have always loved to analyze human psyche and morality. I also appreciate Martin’s take on religions, nature and legitimization of power, leadership and ways of ruling. Populism and a bit of economics too.
    Tolkien’s Christian faith shows in mythology of the world he created. In Martin’s world it is entertaining to embrace plurality of worldviews and analyze how are those religions shaped by historical and geographical context and how it shapes acts of their followers (or how they may choose to bend the rules, when it suits them).
    Morality exists in spectrum of grey. That makes the narrative less predictable. Multiple interesting characters and many times radical development. Believable and active female characters and abundance of them.
    I don’t say a bit of those can’t be found in Tolkien or that it makes his legacy less valuable. He will always a giant of literature for many people. But for me his work has just never been that interesting.

    Reply
  52. Mac

    There’s no accounting for tastes, and anyway I haven’t read Martin and probably won’t, so I can’t compare them. But I think the article you linked to is extremely mistaken in its evaluation of Tolkien.

    Reply
  53. Rob G

    I have an online correspondent who loves The Hobbit but finds LOTR less than compelling. Not enough psychological depth or something. He prefers Stephen R. Donaldson, whom he calls the “Dostoevsky of fantasy.”
    “I think the article you linked to is extremely mistaken in its evaluation of Tolkien.”
    Ditto. No need to read Martin to realize that the chap is quite wrong about JRRT. Although I do see why Martin’s approach may appear more attractive to “young adult” sensibilities. In my younger days I held quite a brief for Stephen King, at times considering him our era’s Dickens. The more I actually read Dickens, however, and other quality writers, such as Helprin, the less I grew to like King.
    My guess is that a lot of the appreciation of writers such as Martin and King is due to their “cinematic” quality. The generations that have been brought up with movies being the prime source of their engagement with narrative art, especially post-Star Wars, would tend to have different expectations of literature than older ones. I think they prefer their books to read like movies, so to speak.
    Speaking of folks who find Tolkien boring, what’s up with Grumpy? Hasn’t been around in a while.

    Reply
  54. Janet

    Grumpy was off Facebook for a while, but I saw that she “liked” something yesterday. I talked to her a bit shortly after she finished her pilgrimage this year–about a month ago–but not since then. She just seems to be offline in general.
    AMDG

    Reply
  55. Janet

    Well, Rob, I see that Grumpy commented on Maclin’s link to this week’s SNJ on Facebook. Apparently her dog is in heat. 😉
    AMDG

    Reply
  56. Mac

    Ha. I haven’t seen that (yet). I was about to say she went off Facebook a while back.

    Reply
  57. Stu

    Those are good points, Rob. About King and Martin, both of whom I like to read but it is a different kind of reading and I find a lot of King to sort of annoy me now, especially his first-person narration.
    To me the only very large failing for Tolkien, and I have only read Hobbit and LOTR, is the complete lack of quality female characters. Here in Mobile they have kids in middle school read The Hobbit, and I recall my stepdaughter being completely unenthused, and mainly due to that point.
    Peter Jackson tried to solve this in the movies by giving Liv Tyler and Cate Blanchett more expansive roles than those characters had in the books – and Evangeline Lilly in The Hobbit movies.

    Reply
  58. Mac

    “…prefer their books to read like movies…”
    Sigh. I suppose so. That certainly fits with the popularity of Harry Potter. I liked those movies better than the books. There’s somebody (Rowling) whom I will confidently assert to be inferior to Tolkien.
    I do understand, more or less, the complaint that Tolkien is “lacking in psychological depth” etc. I don’t share it but I can understand it. I think the expectation behind that complaint is that they want the book to be more like a modern novel. That’s fundamentally the complaint of that Martin-Tolkien comparison.

    Reply
  59. Stu

    I miss Grumpy too!

    Reply
  60. Mac

    “Peter Jackson tried to solve this in the movies by…”
    Jackson shows many signs of not really understanding Tolkien. Or of wanting him to be something he’s not. Or maybe just in the end a guy who wants to make big loud movies.

    Reply
  61. Janet

    Are you serious, Stu?
    Do you really not think Eowyn wasn’t a strong character? She killed a Nazgul for goodness sake. And Arwen–her decision not to leave with the Elves was unbelievably strong. And Galadriel turning down the ring?
    Not to mention Shelob.
    I really detest the idea of sticking in women just so that there will be some. Once in the CSL Society, we needed a board for some IRS thing, and someone suggested me, and then someone else said, “Yes, we need a women.” So I told them if they were choosing me just because I was a woman, forget it.
    AMDG

    Reply
  62. Stu

    All of the main characters you follow throughout the story are male.

    Reply
  63. Mac

    It’s true that there aren’t many female characters in LOTR, but the ones who are there are extremely important. I must admit that I don’t have much sympathy for the “not enough female characters” view, at least not in this case.
    I know a certain female theology professor who reacted quite badly to the suggestion that her presence on a panel was significant because she was a woman.

    Reply
  64. Janet

    So what?
    AMDG

    Reply
  65. Janet

    Cross-posted.

    Reply
  66. Janet

    The so what had to do with the female characters.
    AMDG

    Reply
  67. Stu

    I was really tying this all back to my stepdaughter and her disinterest due to this point. I don’t have a horse in the race.

    Reply
  68. Rob G

    “I think the expectation behind that complaint is that they want the book to be more like a modern novel. That’s fundamentally the complaint of that Martin-Tolkien comparison.”
    Exactly.
    “All of the main characters you follow throughout the story are male.”
    I see no more a problem with that than I see a problem with the main characters in Jane Austen being female.

    Reply
  69. Janet

    Well, Stu, what I hope your stepdaughter can learn is that it doesn’t matter if the characters are male, or female, or aliens, or dolphins. What matters is that the characters a good characters, and that the story is a good story. To close yourself off from the world of an excellent book because it does not meet some predetermined standards of diversity, or whatever, it to impoverish yourself. To even be thinking about something like that while you are reading is to destroy the book.
    AMDG

    Reply
  70. Stu

    You are all ardent Tolkien defenders, good for you! 🙂

    Reply
  71. Janet

    It is not Tolkien that I am defending.

    Reply
  72. Stu

    Well, you just can’t control how a reader interacts with a book. So if millions of teen-age girls find The Hunger Games superior to Tolkien, so be it. When I was a kid and reading fantasy I knew no females that did the same, just geeky guys. We adults know that The Hunger Games is trash, and Tolkien is not, but teen-agers don’t care what we think.

    Reply
  73. Robert Gotcher

    This is what I wrote about psychological complexity in my post on 52 authors:

    This does not mean that Tolkien’s characters are not complex, or “round.” I would argue that the complexity that we look for in a character in a novel is present in Tolkien’s mind, but only comes through indirectly in their words and actions. Tolkien has known these characters for decades and they sometimes have a history of millennia. Galadriel, for instance, is a complex character with a long history of hubris, defiance, exile, and humiliation. This background only show’s itself in glimpses during her appearance on stage. It also gives a lot of poignancy to her conquest over the temptation to take the ring that is offered her. The idea that Galadriel is the Blessed Virgin Mary is misguided, even if somewhat countenanced by Tolkien himself. She is a fallen woman who is given one more chance to receive grace and redemption. Perhaps she is Eve redeemed, and so an icon of Our Lady, like all of us whom grace transforms.

    Reply
  74. Mac

    I agree with that.

    Reply
  75. Stu

    I was talking books with my assistant the other day, she reads a lot of fantasy, and somehow we got into a “books being better than movies” discussion which went on a short while until she said, “Usually the book is much better than the movie, but one case that this is certainly not true is The Lord of the Rings.” I began to laugh and told her (briefly) about some discussions on this blog.
    Mac, I’m not trying to ruin your afternoon, but I knew you had a post that would be apropos to that recent discussion. She is in her 30s, introverted, and quite articulate.

    Reply
  76. Mac

    Sigh. I really try not to get into the old guy thing of complaining that the young people are all going downhill, but sometimes it’s hard not to. I’m not sure anyone who comments here ever voiced so lamentable an opinion as that the LOTR movies are better than the book. Perhaps one of the people who didn’t like the book anyway (I can think of at least one such person, and I don’t think she reads the blog anymore).
    As it happens, the very first post on this blog was about the last of the movies:
    https://www.lightondarkwater.com/2004/01/the-return-of-the-king.html
    Don’t worry about ruining my afternoon. I am pretty resigned about this sort of thing. At this point I don’t have much hope of my grandchildren reading the book and would be pleased if they would just watch the movies rather than play those (&(#@! video games.

    Reply
  77. Rob G

    Could be that she watched the movies first then read the book. To my mind that’s almost always a mistake, because whatever you experience first will inevitably color your judgment. This is not to say she’s right, of course. But if the movies made her think that the book was going to be a big action-packed extravaganza full of battles and monsters, her expectations were off and her error can be understood somewhat.
    Now if she read the book first, saw the movies, and still thought the movies were better, that’s a much bigger issue!

    Reply
  78. Mac

    Indeed it is!

    Reply

Leave a reply to Mac Cancel reply

Instagram / TikTok / X

Designed with WordPress