History as God

It's probably abusing the privilege somewhat, but a portion of James Bowman's media column in the April New Criterion is so good that I'm going to quote it at length. It's a devastatingly sharp critique of the fatuous Mr. Obama's assertion that he is always "on the right side of history."

…Mr. Kerry, when interviewed on Face the Nation about Russia’s “incredible act of aggression,” found his credulity taxed. It was because “You just don’t in the twenty-first century behave in nineteenth-century fashion by invading another country on [a] completely trumped up pretext.” Well, you don’t. Other people, who haven’t got the memo about history’s changeover from nineteenth- to twenty-first-century international norms, might still behave differently—“incredible” as that may seem to someone grown, as so many progressives have grown these days, accustomed to regarding “history” as a compliant imaginary friend. A wiser man than Mr. Kerry might have taken the Russian démarche as a sign that “history” is not what he thought it was. He might even see one or two other signs that the twenty-first century is going to look a lot more like the nineteenth century—or even the eighteenth century—than anyone might have supposed only a few years ago. My own darkest suspicion is that it is likely to be the seventeenth century, with its religious wars, that will provide the better model for our future.

Back in the third, or Bob Schieffer, debate of the 2012 campaign—the one in which, as various commentators suddenly recalled, Mr. Obama mocked the hapless Mitt Romney for having said that Russia was our number one geopolitical foe—the President also dealt as forcefully as he knew how with those who, like Mr. Romney, would have questioned his leadership:

And they can look at my track record, whether it’s Iran sanctions, whether it’s dealing with counterterrorism, whether it’s supporting democracy, whether it’s supporting women’s rights, whether it’s supporting religious minorities, and they can say that the President of the United States and the United States of America have stood on the right side of history. And that kind of credibility is precisely why we have been able to show leadership on a wide range of issues facing the world right now.

Leadership to him means standing, rhetorically, at any rate, on the right side of history with democracy, women’s rights, and (bizarrely) religious minorities. Tell that to the Christian minorities in Iraq, Syria, and Egypt. It has little or nothing to do with forming or strengthening alliances or confronting enemies among nation states—which, in the progressive view, are pretty much obsolete in any case. It is an occasion for reaffirming rather than reexamining the progressives’ putative alliance with “history,” without which progressivism itself would be unimaginable. If history does not equal progress, then whither the progressives? Conversely, therefore, Russia is meant to be abashed by the news of history’s disfavor, which the President takes it upon himself to pronounce in no uncertain terms on history’s behalf. Here’s what he said the following Monday before a meeting with the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin Netanyahu: “And I think the strong condemnation that it’s received from countries around the world indicates the degree to which Russia’s on the wrong side of history on this.”

Do tell! A similar message, we may remember, was sent to the brutally oppressed Iranian protestors of the “Green Revolution” back in 2009. “After more than a week of being accused by Republicans and others of failing to live up to the American tradition of supporting pro-democracy movements,” the Guardian reported at the time,

Obama adopted much tougher language, going far beyond his previous expressions only of sympathy with the demonstrators. “The United States and the international community have been appalled and outraged by the threats, beatings, and imprisonments of the last few days. I strongly condemn these unjust actions, and I join with the American people in mourning each and every innocent life that is lost,” he said. He praised the women who had courageously took part in the demonstrations and “the searing image of a woman bleeding to death on the streets.” The demonstrators would in the end be seen to be “on the right side of history.”

I guess it must be the promise of support from “history” that puts this “much tougher language” so “far beyond his previous expressions only of sympathy with the demonstrators.” At any rate, it is all the more unfortunate that, five years later, history still shows no signs of coming through for them. Like freedom-loving Ukrainians, presumably, freedom-loving Iranians will just have to be patient until the quasi-deity of “history” can get around to their problems. For now it’s busy conferring upon Americans its latest gifts, which are the Affordable Care Act and gay marriage….

The jihadists currently enjoying the revival of the custom, long abandoned in the West, of beheading their enemies, also no doubt believe that they are on the right side of history. But it's more important to them that they are on what they believe to be  God's side. The vague appeal to history as "quasi-deity" is probably the residue of Christianity in the modern secular mind. Like most secular gods, it's a wispy ectoplasmic one, and the arguments for its existence are incoherent: what exactly is it in the nature of things that would cause unguided evolution-driven "history" to aim for something that progressives would consider to be utopia, which is implicitly their expectation? Or to aim at all? Nothing, as far as I can see.  The shark and the cockroach, we're told, are fabulously successful, from the evolutionary point of view. 

279 responses to “History as God”

  1. But it’s more important to them that they are on what they believe to be God’s side.
    Hmmmm
    AMDG

  2. grumpy in england

    When we were children our father fined us 25 cents if we said ‘in this modern day and age’

  3. Robert Gotcher

    From the pope’s most recent interview:

    Violence in the name of God dominates the Middle East.
    It’s a contradiction. Violence in the name of God does not correspond with our time. It’s something ancient. With historical perspective, one has to say that Christians, at times, have practiced it. When I think of the Thirty Years War, there was violence in the name of God. Today it is unimaginable, right?

    Read more: http://www.ncregister.com/daily-news/full-text-of-pope-francis-interview-with-la-vanguardia/#ixzz34tg9MXUc
    I think this Hegelian streak is deeply ingrained in the modern psyche.

  4. Unimaginable? Hardly. Well, ok, of the same type and scale as the 17th century wars, hard to imagine. Hard to imagine Christians initiating something like that, but not very hard at all to imagine Christian-vs-anti-Christian violence in the West sometime in this century.
    But anyway, I think your point is that the Pope is using that same inevitability-of-history thinking, right? “does not correspond with our time” Sorry, Holy Father, but that sounds a little silly to me.
    Your father just became my hero, Grumpy.

  5. grumpy in england

    He was as I must have told you received into the church one week efore he died. He was not a saint but he has some sound ideas and six children

  6. If you had told me that I’d forgotten. That’s wonderful. And I’d say “sound ideas and six children” comprise an excellent legacy.

  7. No offense, but the Pope needs to read Cavanaugh’s The Myth of Religious Violence.

  8. Robert Gotcher

    In defense of the pope, sort of, there has been a deepening of sensitivity to the significance of the dignity of the human person within the Catholic intellectual and moral tradition. That is why the Catholic Church practically is much stricter about CP than previously (although the theoretical basis for that restriction is essentially the same argument). It is also why the Church ultimately rejected slavery.

  9. This caused me to wonder about the source of that quote I’ve heard from progressives on this–something to the effect that “the arc of history is long, but it bends toward justice.” Well, here’s the story. Pretty sure I’ve heard it as “history,” not “the moral universe.”

  10. I think that Christians – and other eschatological faiths – do at least have a theoretical basis for insisting that something or other is on the “right side of history”. It’s very much part of the DNA of Christianity (not just various modern Hegelian flavors) that the Incarnation changed something about humanity, that this change is slowly working itself out over the course of history, and that eventually history will lead to the second advent of the One who changed everything in the first place, and who will stand in judgment over ever aspect of history. Of course, this theoretical basis for saying that the “arc of history is long but it bends toward justice” is neither (a) a reasonable basis for asserting that any given particular stance that seems popular at the moment is correct, nor (b) a reasonable basis for secularists to claim anything, since they don’t buy its presuppositions.

  11. grumpy in england

    Robert Got I agree – that’s what I was thinking

  12. Grumpy, I think I’m going to adopt your father’s policy as my own. Our children haven’t used such phrases yet, but when the time comes…

  13. Which it will.
    I don’t deny, by the way, that there has been moral progress, though I sometimes wonder if there has been net moral progress. We don’t know how it looks to God: does our sexual mess balance out our compassion in matters like criminal punishment in some ledger? What I get annoyed by is the idea that it’s the work of “history,” whatever that means.

  14. Marianne

    Does Francis’s remark mean he doesn’t agree with what Benedict said in Spe Salvi about progress?:

    First of all, we must acknowledge that incremental progress is possible only in the material sphere. Here, amid our growing knowledge of the structure of matter and in the light of ever more advanced inventions, we clearly see continuous progress towards an ever greater mastery of nature. Yet in the field of ethical awareness and moral decision-making, there is no similar possibility of accumulation for the simple reason that man’s freedom is always new and he must always make his decisions anew. These decisions can never simply be made for us in advance by others—if that were the case, we would no longer be free. Freedom presupposes that in fundamental decisions, every person and every generation is a new beginning. Naturally, new generations can build on the knowledge and experience of those who went before, and they can draw upon the moral treasury of the whole of humanity. But they can also reject it, because it can never be self-evident in the same way as material inventions. The moral treasury of humanity is not readily at hand like tools that we use; it is present as an appeal to freedom and a possibility for it.

  15. Well, actually I’m not sure I agree 100% with Benedict here, either. Certainly his point about freedom always being a new beginning is true. But surely there is some collective progress. The big difference, I guess, is that barring some kind of civilizational collapse, the sort of thing that was postulated in nuclear apocalypse stories, we don’t really backslide on scientific knowledge. Or at least we haven’t for the last several hundred years. But moral progress is a very slippery uphill climb, and we’re always threatening to lose in one matter what we gained in another.

  16. Don’t you think that in a way we are backsliding on scientific knowledge by the fact that scientific research in many areas is so agenda-led, and that it seems that a blind eye may be being turned to research that doesn’t gel with the prevailing “truth?” And that some theory is taught as fact while other theory is not taught in schools at all? Doesn’t this hobble the next generation of scientist?
    Or maybe I’m wrong.
    I could say this better if I wasn’t in a hurry.
    AMDG

  17. I think Benedict’s summary is spot-on. It does not surprise me that BO repairs to cliches. Kerry is older, has been in politics for a generation, and has seen some stuff in his life.
    I wonder if he said that because that’s the argument he could pull out of his hat at that moment to defend a policy that actually does not interest him, just like you wonder if the latest round of peace-process wheel-spinning in the Near East is really his idea.

  18. That’s definitely happening, and has happened in the past (“scientific” racism), but I don’t think it’s decisive. I hope I’m not just naive, but I tend to think that science is in the long run self-correcting. Not absolutely, but enough to keep a complete backslide from happening. In my limited experience, most scientists really do care about the truth.

  19. Cross-posted–I was replying to Janet.
    Art, is your second paragraph a reference to Obama or Kerry?

  20. Louise

    When we were children our father fined us 25 cents if we said ‘in this modern day and age’
    Brilliant! That phrase is offensive on at least three counts!
    “The right side of history” really grates.

  21. You’re so optimistic, Maclin.
    AMDG

  22. I know, it’s my big weakness.

  23. That’s how you got suckered in by the President.

  24. Yes, I’m always tempted to hold out extravagant hopes for politics.

  25. That is one temptation with which I am not afflicted. I do remember being plagued by it when I was younger, though.
    AMDG

  26. I never really was. There was a brief (though intense) period where I dreamed of some kind of total cultural revolution, but even that was not exactly political.

  27. Church Lady

    It’s just a figure of speech. No one actually thinks “history” is acting as an independent God-like being to make stuff happen. It just refers to the basic trends over time of human culture. And it can and will change also, because history is not revelatory, it is merely cumulative, and has a momentum within human affairs.
    The fact is, countries invading one another to impose their will are on the decline worldwide. It’s hypocritical for the US to criticize Russia for this, but not inaccurate, in that the US’s invasions of Iraq and Afghanistan are good examples of why this trend is on the decline. And we can see a definite “arc of history” in recent centuries away from that kind of Clausewitzian “war as another form of diplomacy” standard that once ruled the day.
    That trend in international relations could certainly reverse itself, but given the way the world is progressing in strictly technological and economic ways, it seems like a fair claim to make that wars like this are becoming passe.
    The same is generally true on the human rights front. The fact that human rights violations continue to occur does not mean that the trend line of history is not moving away from such things. In fact, the extent of moral outrage over human rights violations in remote places around the world like Syria is testimony to the trend itself. At one time, no one cared about such things. Now, they are viewed as increasingly outrageous and illegitimate.
    The phrase can certainly be overused, or turned into a circle form of logic for one’s pet issues, but it’s not inherently wrong to see history having definite long-term trends.

  28. Church Lady, did you read the quote from Pope Benedict above? I think he answered your post before you wrote it.

  29. Church Lady

    Yes, I did read that. But the trends of history are not only towards less religious-based war and human rights violations, but less of these altogether. People do eventually seem to learn from their collective mistakes.
    Religious-based war has seldom been the dominant problem in the first place. It just gets the most attention because it is rooted in the realm of ideas and identity. Most war is about much cruder forms of selfishness. And as we make it easier to attain wealth and comfort by peaceful means, war becomes less attractive overall.

  30. ” it’s not inherently wrong to see history having definite long-term trends.”
    No, of course not. The point isn’t that there are no trends, but that there is nothing inevitable about them, unless you want to posit a governing moral intelligence. And that, I think, is exactly what the lazy “wrong side of history” notion attempts to do, and yet not do. It wants to have things both ways: there is no God, but there is…”the arc of history,” or something.
    “No one actually thinks “history” is acting as an independent God-like being to make stuff happen.”
    No, not if you put it explicitly in that way. But there is a fairly widespread and rather thoughtless habit of mind, which I feel pretty sure is derived from the evolution paradigm, which supposes that there is some kind of inevitable movement from simple life to complex, from stupid to smart, from religious to secular, etc. In certain circles you hear the word “evolved” as a term of praise, meaning “advanced,” meaning “better.” Genuine progress is possible, but it’s not inevitable or automatic, as the evolutionist sensibility tends to assume, and in fact probably depends for its continuation on people understanding that it’s not inevitable or automatic.

  31. Ken Smith’s comment from yesterday was in the spam catcher and I just noticed it.
    “I think that Christians – and other eschatological faiths – do at least have a theoretical basis for insisting that something or other is on the “right side of history””
    Indeed we do. What I meant to be suggesting at the end of this post was that the attempt to separate an eschatological view of history from an eschatological faith is muddled, to say the least.

  32. Church Lady

    The notion of inevitability comes from the idea that some things simply work, and others don’t, and in the long run, the things that work prevail over the things that don’t work.
    That’s evolution in a nutshell. Call it cultural adaptation if you like. People do learn over time, and humanity as a species learns over time that some things work, and they slowly, through trial and error, come find better and better ways to work things out.
    Science is the biggest example of this. One can reject the science of radioactivity if one insists on believing the world is less than 10,000 years old, but that won’t stop nuclear engineers from building better nuclear reactors over time. Most people by now accept that science and technology progresses over time, not perfectly by any means, but through trial and error and the scientific method, to come up with better answers to many problems.
    The notion of political, cultural, humanitarian, and even moral progress comes out of this same concept – that there is a way that reality works, and that human culture is not moving in some random, arbitrary direction, but towards a better understanding of reality. Which includes the reality of our evolutionary history as well, and the biological processes by which we have become human beings.
    There’s a basic direction to that, and it’s towards reality. One can glean something about reality simply by observing the sweep of history, short as it is. One can’t achieve great predictive skill about that, and any conclusions about the direction of history are subject to much argument and disagreement, but that’s part of the process itself.
    One thing I’ll say with strong observational conviction is that one of the primary “directions” of history is towards empirical logic as the foundation for most everything else in our culture. Not just in science, but in politics, economics, culture, morality, and even religion itself. An example of the latter would be the Dalai Lama’s statement that where Buddhist doctrine conflicts with science, he would choose science, rather than doctrine.
    Those who choose religious doctrine over empirical observation as a way of knowing what is true in this life, are “on the wrong side of history”, is what I’m suggesting among other things. Those who are attached to beliefs and doctrines that can’t stand up to empirical examination and testing, are being pushed towards that proverbial dustbin. Kicking and screaming and throwing IEDs perhaps, but still being inevitably pushed in that direction by the forces of reality. And so, I might add, are many liberal and “progressive” shiboleths. Reality doesn’t actually have a liberal bias, in other words, unless liberals are willing to eschew their own doctrines when the evidence undermines them.

  33. “One thing I’ll say with strong observational conviction is that one of the primary “directions” of history is towards empirical logic as the foundation for most everything else in our culture.”
    Strongly disagree. This leads to the complete rejection of metaphysics and to what R. Guenon called “the reign of quantity”: only that which is measurable is true. It is simply a historical vestige of the positivism long rejected by science proper. It also makes a sham of free will.
    “Those who choose religious doctrine over empirical observation as a way of knowing what is true in this life, are ‘on the wrong side of history’.”
    False dichotomy. The group of people who reject empiricism is not limited to believers in “religious doctrine.”
    In addition, doctrine, taken to mean the essential truths of a given religion, can neither be proved nor disproved empirically, at least as far as Christianity goes. There is nothing in logic or science that can disprove the Nicene Creed, for instance. The notion that modern religious people “cling to their faith in spite of massive contrary scientific evidence” is simply a modernist myth.

  34. “the attempt to separate an eschatological view of history from an eschatological faith is muddled, to say the least.”
    Exactly. How can history be telic if there is no telos? To say that the telos “emerges” as we “progress” just begs the question.

  35. I’m not at liberty to comment much at the moment. Maybe later today. But just quickly–Church Lady says:
    “The notion of political, cultural, humanitarian, and even moral progress comes out of this same concept – that there is a way that reality works, and that human culture is not moving in some random, arbitrary direction, but towards a better understanding of reality. Which includes the reality of our evolutionary history as well, and the biological processes by which we have become human beings.”
    I can actually agree with this, to a degree and with some qualifications. Most especially, the qualification that “reality” is considerably more than physical reality.
    Also, Church Lady, I imagine you came to this via Rod Dreher’s link, right? A lot of the commenters over there seem, like you, to be taking my post as a more or less analytically-oriented attempt to refute Hegel, or something. But it’s really only directed at the lazy equation of evolution/history with moral progress, which I don’t think I’m unfair in attributing to our president. Your position is coherent, though I don’t entirely agree.
    And although it’s not apparent from my excerpt, the Bowman quote is a long excursus within a piece which is mainly about current politics, not the philosophy of history, so he likewise was not making an exhaustive critique.
    And “yes” to what Rob G says above. More later, I hope.
    Well, that was pretty long for “not much.”

  36. grumpy in england

    As far as progress is concerned, it depends where one puts the thermometer in. The 18 and 19th centuries saw great technological progress alongside slavery justified by ‘scientific racism’. The civil war, fought in part to end slavery was one of the bloodiest wars ever fought, thanks to the invention of the repeat rifle.

  37. grumpy in england

    And someone should fine the Dalai lam 25 cents – maybe the pantheon Lamar if he hadn’t been kidnapped by the Chinese

  38. An African visiting Europe stood in front of a Gothic building and, to the amusement of his European hosts, said in awe, “Can they still build things like that?”
    But it’s a fair question. Can they? If they can, why don’t they? The obstacle isn’t technological decline, but there does seem to be some obstacle.

  39. grumpy in england

    Sorry this tablet substitutes nonsense words and in that respect is a poor example of cultural progress. I tried to write
    Someone should fine the Dalai Lama 25 cents – maybe the Pan Chen Lamar if he had not been kidnapped by the Chinese.
    Paul we could not make the Parthenon today for that matter. The Shard is all we can rise to, though our ‘technology’ is better

  40. grumpy in england

    Comparison of the relative beauty of the small towns and villages of Europe and odd America would not do much to recommend any general theory of human progress. The villages of Europe are more beautiful and the older the better e.g. Spain’s ancient villages are more aesthetically pleasing than Scotland’s 19th century townships. Of course a whig can take refuge from this in aesthetic subjectivity but the fact is millions of Americans and Asians visit Europe for pleasure and v few visit the Midwest for the purposes of sightseeing

  41. Grumpy’s and Paul’s comments support one of the points I wanted to make: that the idea of progress can’t be separated from the question “toward what?” Answering that question requires the naming of principles, and that requires the moral faculty that evolution, considered as a purely physical process, can’t provide.
    That brings in the Benedict quote that Marianne posted, too: human freedom means that decisions for the right have to be made over and over again, the principles constantly examined and refined. There’s nothing to stop any progress, real or imagined, from being reversed. Christians believe that the reversal will not be ultimate, with respect to Christian conceptions of what constitutes progress. But I for one don’t regard as by any means inevitable that humanity will avoid some really dark stretches in the future, possibly the near future. And in fact there are plenty of examples around of developments which progressives consider to be for the better, and their acceptance as evidence of their being on the right side of history, but which many others regard as for the worse.

  42. I cross-posted with your last comment, Grumpy.
    “Comparison of the relative beauty of the small towns and villages of Europe and odd America would not do much to recommend any general theory of human progress.”
    Yes, this is something I’ve struggled with for a long time (meaning decades) without coming to any firm resolution about it. What you say is very true. And what should we think about it? I can’t believe that it’s insignificant that most of the modern world is so extremely ugly. I was thinking about it last night as I drove through the pot-holed parking lot of a run-down shopping center–an utterly desolate environment. And yet the people there are enormously better off physically than the ones who built those ancient Spanish villages. What conclusions should we draw about progress etc.? I’m really not sure.

  43. grumpy in england

    Exactly. Today’s Americans are far tactically better off materially than the Spaniards who built those villages. But the strip malls which substitute for towns in which the former live are horribly ugly and express something a hot many of the lives lived in them, although of course not about the value of the souls. So it’s ambivalent. So could one sYstematic the folks in the strip mall towns are ‘closer to reality’ than the Spaniards? I this k not

  44. Your tablet’s editing is pretty amusing.
    But I think not, too. In fact it’s a serious objection to the modern world that it tends to detach people from certain important realities.

  45. grumpy in england

    It’s not my tablet it’s my stepmothers. Fantastically not tactically. Neither of us know how to turn off the correcting feature

  46. Church Lady

    I’m not sure what your POV is on the “direction of history”, or where you are coming from. It’s fine to ridicule superficial and purely self-serving uses of that idea, but my basic point is that there exists a legitimate basis for it, that should be acknowledged before criticizing those abuses.
    So, to answer the question, “toward what?”, I’ll just repeat the point I made earlier: towards reality. I also think it’s something of a mistake to focus only on particular ends, when it is even more important in my view to focus on means. In other words, progress towards the use of certain means is more important than progress towards particular ends.
    It’s in that spirit that I point out that the primary “direction of history” I see occurring in recent centuries, or at least since the Renaissance, is towards empiricism. I agree with you that reality is more than merely physical, but we might disagree on how to find reality. The standard Christian approach is to resort to revelation for our views on reality, but I would suggest that the long historical trend is away from that, and towards an empirical approach. Catholics and many other Christians have acknowledged this in the more mundane areas of life, but resist the intrusion of empirical methods for determining truth in the cultural, moral, ethical, and spiritual dimensions. And this is why many now consider a fair amount of traditional religious dogma to be on the “wrong side of history” – because of the methods used in such dogmas, which are usually not empirical.
    The advantage of empiricism is that it allows adaptation to take place, including the abandonment of principles and ideas that just don’t work in the real world. Revealed dogma, however, does not adapt well, and when the tension between the dogma and the observed reality becomes too great, it’s the dogma that breaks down, not the empirical observations. At least in the long run.

  47. I seem to recall Maritain making a case that the process of history was one of ever-wider fluctuation. Fewer wars, but more destructive; less hunger, but greater individual reluctance to take in the destitute; that kind of thing. I might be misremembering. Clearly coloured by the experience of the Second World War, but in historical terms that only ended yesterday. There are plenty of people still living who remember it, even if few of them are now old enough to have fought in it.
    It always surprises me to read something in the newspapers that indicates in passing that, for example, the army of Chad is operating in the Central African Republic. Not because there’s a state of war between the two countries, but just because all sorts of random stuff is going on and they want (or need) to influence the outcome. Perhaps not very Clausewitzian, but surely this too is “countries invading one another to impose their will”? I wonder how many countries the British army is in at present, not for conquest or for national survival but for “security operations” or “humanitarian operations”? It’s enough to say that wars and invasions are on the decline, if we just call them “interventions” instead.

  48. grumpy in england

    I don’t get how people living in a strip mall are closer to reality than people living in an ancient Spanish village.
    Several millions of people have died in the civil wars plaguing central Africa in the past 15 years. Are they anhydrous closer to reality than the Africans of 1945 or1045?

  49. “I agree with you that reality is more than merely physical, but we might disagree on how to find reality. The standard Christian approach is to resort to revelation for our views on reality, but I would suggest that the long historical trend is away from that, and towards an empirical approach.”
    How does one “empirically” find these non-physical aspects of reality?
    “Revealed dogma, however, does not adapt well, and when the tension between the dogma and the observed reality becomes too great, it’s the dogma that breaks down, not the empirical observations. At least in the long run.”
    Dogma, by definition, cannot “break down.” Applications and interpretations may adapt, but the dogma is the dogma. You either reject it or accept it, but there’s no question of it “breaking down.” As I said above, something truly dogmatic, like the Nicene Creed for instance, cannot by nature be either proved or disproved empirically.

  50. C.S. Lewis makes a point similar to Maritain’s. As I recall, the gist of it is that history progress in both good and evil.
    As far as one country, or an alliance of countries, imposing its will on another, you could hardly find a more straightforward example of that than the war in Iraq, which made Kerry’s “you don’t just…” kind of funny. And part of the reason for that was an attempt to knock the Middle East onto the right side of history–that is, out of autocracy and tribal warfare and into liberal democracy (I know, that’s a debatable point, but I think it was part of the rationale).
    But most of all it was funny because of its “in this day and age” outrage. As if the human propensity for conquest were going to wither away just because we think it should.

  51. Church Lady says “It’s fine to ridicule superficial and purely self-serving uses of that idea, but my basic point is that there exists a legitimate basis for it, that should be acknowledged before criticizing those abuses.”
    That’s a fair point in the abstract, but as I said before I wasn’t attempting any sort of full treatment of the subject.
    As a Christian I do in fact have a strong sense of history as having a moral logic and a direction, but it’s pretty different from the progressive “right side of history” idea, which I think actually owes something psychologically to Christianity as well as to evolutionism.

  52. Rob says “something truly dogmatic, like the Nicene Creed for instance, cannot by nature be either proved or disproved empirically.”
    Right. Empiricism may refute erroneous conclusions about the physical world that are derived from dogma, but the dogma itself is in another category. Empiricism cannot prove or disprove moral assertions, either, except by insisting that they produce good or bad results–but then you have to define “good” and “bad” in some non-empirical way. There’s just no getting away from it. Empiricism has its uses, and certainly it’s one of the more powerful trends in recent centuries, but I wouldn’t say it’s so much more important than others as to define a direction for history.
    That said, I do believe in a sort of higher empiricism. I believe, for instance, that Christianity will always be with us, because, in a sense, it works–for the whole human person, not just for the part which is interested in factual-material truth.
    Similarly, if there is in fact a movement of history toward understanding and acceptance of what is real, an effectively materialist empiricism will not stand indefinitely as the definitive way of understanding the world. And what it leaves out will never be verifiable to the satisfaction of everyone in the way that, say, the laws of gravity are.

  53. Louise

    I like Reality too and I’m inclined to think that I’m more in touch with it than the kind of people who use the phrase “on the right side of history.”

  54. heh. No, make that lol. I was thinking something similar about some of the currently most popular progressive causes. Some of them (same-sex marriage) pretty much fly in the face of reality, which, even more than nature, bats last.
    Which doesn’t invalidate Church Lady’s point–I assume he/she (why do I lean toward “he” in spite of the name?–something to do with the general approach and style–am I right, CL?)–I assume he/she would say, regardless of his/her views on that particular question, that there will be mistakes and blind alleys and backtracking along with the overall forward movement.

  55. Church Lady

    How does one “empirically” find these non-physical aspects of reality?
    Through religious and spiritual observation and experience. Just as observation and experience of the physical world yields knowledge of it, the same goes with religious and spiritual and psychological experience. One can actually investigate one’s own spiritual relationship to the world, and also observe and interact with other people and their spirituality. One can read and study the subject, and compare the various dogmas and see which seem to describe the reality of spiritual experience better.
    That’s of course hard, but no one said finding reality would be easy.
    If the implied argument is that these sorts of things simply can’t be experienced or observed or made the subject of empirical study, it raises the question of why one would believe in them in the first place, other than convenience. After all, someone, somewhere, must have had some kind of experience of these things to form an idea or a dogma about them that corresponds to reality even if in a limited form.
    The rise of empiricism in mundane matters of life has led to empiricism being applied widely to just these sorts of things. That’s one of the primary reasons for the decline in religious dogma and affiliation. People have been observing for themselves whether or not various forms of dogma are actually experientially true, and often finding a conflict between experiential reality and dogma.

  56. Church Lady

    Dogma, by definition, cannot “break down.” Applications and interpretations may adapt, but the dogma is the dogma. You either reject it or accept it, but there’s no question of it “breaking down.”
    Yes, but dogmas do go by the wayside. And one reason they do that is because their authenticity falls apart, leading to a loss of faith in the dogma. A whole lot of people used to accept as dogma the creationist story of Adam and Eve. Now even most traditional Catholics or Orthodox accept evolution as being true. But there are still many who believe the age of the earth is less than 10,000 years, and that humans used to live with Dinosaurs. There are museums documenting this dogma. But I think it is fair to say that particular dogma is breaking down, due to empiricism.
    Likewise, the same-sex marriage debate is another example of a dogmatic approach to morality breaking down and being replaced by an empirical approach. The dogma that homosexuality is a grave sin is falling apart in many people’s view, replaced by the empirical observation that many gay people seem pretty much decent people who ought not to be denied the benefits of legal marriage. I suppose in the abstract the dogma remains “intact” for those who still hold to it, but it sure seems to be falling apart in the real world. A dogma, after all, isn’t observable, except in the minds of the human beings who believe in it. And in that sense, it fails the test of empiricism, which is why people also say things like “anti-gay prejudice is on the wrong side of history”. There’s a logic to that beyond mere partisan rhetoric.

  57. Church Lady

    I like Reality too and I’m inclined to think that I’m more in touch with it than the kind of people who use the phrase “on the right side of history.”
    Sure, I think most everyone likes to think they are more in touch with reality than others. The question then is, “how would you know?”
    Revelation and Dogma proceed by claims of authority for particular sources. If you adhere to those sources of authority, you then feel that you are on the right side of reality, and of history. Religions like Christianity are teleological, believing in a Divine Plan that is carried out through historical processes. Those who have faith in that, are “on God’s side”, which is similar enough to saying one is on the side of reality, or “history”. So I fail to see how one can be against “people who think they are on the right side of history” and not also be against Christianity, or other teleological religions.
    It’s worth noting that not all religions are teleological. Hinduism and Buddhism, for example, believe in a cyclical universe, not just in the sense of reincarnation, but in vast cycles of time. They believe God moves in cycles, not in linear progressions, though in the shorter term (which can still be many thousands or millions of years), there are stronger trends that sweep humanity along as those cycles oscillate in big and small waves.

  58. Church Lady

    I should have added that in the empirical age, people are putting issues of dogma to empirical tests, and then adopting or rejecting those aspects of the dogma that seem to pass, or not. Even religious people are doing this, as in cafeteria Catholics. That’s often looked down upon by dogmatic Catholics, but it’s almost impossible to reverse without also reversing the empirical approach itself. And that’s really hard to to, because empiricism offers so many attractive benefits. This is what I mean by dogma breaking down. The faultline is due to empiricism, and the lack of total faith in dogma this engenders in many people.

  59. Church Lady

    Some of them (same-sex marriage) pretty much fly in the face of reality, which, even more than nature, bats last.
    This is not nearly as obvious as you seem to think. Gay people are a reality that can’t be denied, so I’m not sure what you mean here. Empirical science shows that the whole point of sexuality itself is diversity of genetic outcomes. So homosexuality is merely one of many possible outcomes that naturally occur when sexual reproduction is the means for a species propagating itself.
    Now, one could argue that homosexuality doesn’t contribute well as a behavior to reproductive success for the species, but even this may be incorrect at the genetic level, in that its persistence through time suggests that whatever genes or their expression may be involved, they must confer some benefits also, or they’d have been selected against long ago.
    But regardless of the origins of homosexuality, the persistent fact of it remains, and the moral question arises as to what to do with that fact. Do we regard it as an unnatural sin to be repressed or punished or forbidden, or is it merely a part of the human sexual diversity machine that we should socialize and acculturate? I think the empirical approach strongly suggests the latter, as we cannot find any strong empirical evidence that homosexuality, in itself, is a negative thing. While it may seem unnatural to some heterosexuals, it sure does seem natural to most homosexuals themselves. And the observation of nature seems to agree with the homosexuals.

  60. Church Lady

    As to my gender, I think you should simply consider the origin of the name “Church Lady” in the old skits of Saturday Night Live. I began using the handle as a bit of a joke at Dreher’s blog, often using Church Lady’s signature lines. But not everyone seems to get it.

  61. I’m one of apparently a pretty small number of people who aren’t really familiar with the Church Lady skits. I think I did see one, once. I’m also one of the pretty small number of people who quit watching SNL after the Ackroyd/Belushi et.al. period. So there are a lot of references I don’t get.
    Isn’t Church Lady the one who said “isn’t that special?” It’s very puzzling when suddenly half of one’s acquaintances start repeating a phrase like that and you don’t know what it’s supposed to signify.

  62. grumpy in england

    Clearly several of us define empirical reality differently. And if there is one thing our definitions of empirical reality have in common it will be that none of them is empirical. How then will we be able to say which is closer to reality, given that reality is being defined by at least one person as empirical?

  63. Revealed dogma, however, does not adapt well
    There is some truth in this, in that changing social practices lead to some dogmas not making sense, or seeming at odds with reality, for people living within particular cultural configurations. I think this is what leads to all those great upheavals of heresy: there’s something about Protestantism that seemed intuitively “right” to 16th-century Europeans, and something about Albigensianism that chimed with the perceptions of 12th-century Europeans, and made them think they could jettison the parts of the deposit of faith that didn’t fit. In that sense Catholicism is almost always on the wrong side of history, because it has to carry a lot of baggage to fit all times and places, so might not be the best fit for any particular time and place.
    Still, to have been on the “right side of history” circa 1150 one should have become a Cistercian monk. In a few hundred years any current “right side of history” will no doubt seem as quaint and archaic (or creepy) as monks must seem to those who now use the phrase.
    It’s also natural to read all previous cultural configurations through the lens of the current one (giving greater coherence to the scope of the past than it ever actually possessed), but that’s a habit academically trained historians are supposed to have been taught to break. Or at least to neutralise through self-awareness.

  64. There is more here than I can take time to respond to, but I’ll hit a couple of them.
    I like this from Grumpy: “if there is one thing our definitions of empirical reality have in common it will be that none of them is empirical.”
    And Paul said: “changing social practices lead to some dogmas not making sense, or seeming at odds with reality, for people living within particular cultural configurations.”
    That’s certainly true, an outstanding contemporary example in the Catholic world being the teaching against artificial contraception. (Possibly not a “dogma”, strictly speaking, but close enough.) Many, many Catholics would say following it is ridiculous, miserable, impossible, etc. No sign of its being changed, though widely disregarded. Is this a case of the Church hanging on to a valid principle against passing cultural opposition, to be vindicated by “history”, or will it one day be more or less officially rescinded, again with the approval of “history”? Time will tell. But at what point could we ever say that history had spoken definitively? Seems like you would have to go really far out into the future, if not to the end of time, to be certain.
    Very little in Christian doctrine has actually been somehow disproved by empiricism and science. What has happened, and I think we owe a debt to the empiricists for it, is that scientific discoveries have caused us to refine our understanding of many doctrines, creation being a good example. We realized it’s not necessary to keep the young-earth presumption in order to keep the Creator. A simpler story has been replaced by a less straightforward but just as rich one.
    That doesn’t apply to Christians who keep the young-earth six-day Creation doctrine, of course. Though I don’t think it’s likely, it would be amusing if they turned out to be right.

  65. Church Lady, I have to say that there is a fair amount of question-begging in your advocacy of empiricism. I’ll just note the one involving homosexuality: your statement that “Empirical science shows that the whole point of sexuality itself is diversity of genetic outcomes.”
    The whole point? Empirical science doesn’t show any such thing, and can’t, unless you’re starting with a materialist/naturalist view that is a philosophical and ethical choice, not something derived from empiricism itself.
    “Gay people are a reality that can’t be denied, so I’m not sure what you mean here.”
    Of course they are. I didn’t say “gay people,” I said “same-sex marriage.” And this is a question where I think dogma is indeed attempting to override empirical facts, with many people believing that history is on the side of the dogma. That two men or two women can be said to be “married” in the sense that a man and a woman can is just a brute-force assertion, akin to asserting that there are no meaningful differences between male and female. Well, I say there are, empirically, and that in the long run this attempt to override facts with dogma will fail. You could call that being on the wrong side of history, but I prefer to say that it’s just wrong, period–factually wrong, leaving ethics out of it.

  66. The whole point? Empirical science doesn’t show any such thing, and can’t, unless you’re starting with a materialist/naturalist view that is a philosophical and ethical choice, not something derived from empiricism itself.
    That’s pretty much what I would have said had I not realized that I don’t have time to get involved in this discussion.
    AMDG

  67. As you say, “You just don’t in the twenty-first century behave in nineteenth-century fashion by invading another country on [a] completely trumped up pretext” shows rather a startling ignorance of the past decade’s news. It certainly isn’t what might be called an empirical statement.

  68. Church Lady

    How then will we be able to say which is closer to reality, given that reality is being defined by at least one person as empirical?
    Empiricism breeds many, many theories, that’s it’s whole point. Then it subjects them to observation, analysis, and testing. That’s not an easy process, and with complex problems it can take a very long time, because more and more data comes in, and more and more explanations for the data can be found, and people are still people, so they have their prejudices, biases, and shibboleths. So it’s not some perfect system for determining a final truth. It’s always provisional, limited, and debateable, depending on the degree to which one needs to get something right.
    The big change in human debate these days is that most of it now occurs on the level of empiricism itself, not on the level of theological assertions of logical deduction. Except within Churches, but even there, empiricism plays an increasing role. Why I notice in most public debates involving these sorts of issues, is that even the traditionally religious understand that they can’t just quote scripture, they also have to provide evidence to back that up. That in itself is giving away the ballgame, and shows that empiricism is basically winning.
    If the fundamental question is, “how do we do empiricism best?”, that only means that empiricism has basically cornered the market, and now we are merely debating how best to implement it. That means revelatory religion is basically finished with, except within its own limited confines.
    The fundamentalist Islamists understand this. That’s why they cut off the fingers of voters in Afghanistan, and attack schoolgirls who want an education, and are basically willing to kill anyone who stands up for an empirical approach. They know they can’t turn the tide of history without resorting to extremes. That we don’t see such extremism within Christianity means that it’s basically given up, and is mostly looking for a way to survive and adapt to empiricism with some of its core intact. It’s why Dreher admits that the fight over SSM is over. The arguments from the moral authority of Christianity just don’t fly anymore. He’s reduced to hoping for some kind of apocalypse to make everyone see the error of their ways. Good luck with that.

  69. Church Lady

    I’ll just note the one involving homosexuality: your statement that “Empirical science shows that the whole point of sexuality itself is diversity of genetic outcomes.”
    The whole point? Empirical science doesn’t show any such thing, and can’t, unless you’re starting with a materialist/naturalist view that is a philosophical and ethical choice, not something derived from empiricism itself.

    Yes, the study of evolutionary biology does indeed show that there’s really no value in sexuality as a means of reproduction other than to create a highly diverse population which has many, many different kinds of survival and reproductive strategies, so that the whole population cannot be easily wiped out by any one threat.
    The basic question for biology is “why sex?” when asexual reproduction is far more efficient, and worked just fine for billions of years before sexuality emerged. The costs of sexual reproduction are just huge – half the population can’t have children at all (men), and the difficulties of making sex work out are just huge. So that cost has to provide a huge benefit to make it work out in evolutionary terms. The answer is that immense diversity in the population in virtually every respect, including all the behavioral aspects of sexuality. If everyone did sex the same, it would diminish that diversity, and thus endanger the species’ long-term survival. And the same goes for everything else, including most especially having a highly diverse immune system that allows that even superbugs will leave someone surviving.
    Now, if there are some metaphysical explanations for our sexuality (and I for one think there are), these would still have to be evident in the physical organism. That’s why I conclude that God is not opposed to diversity of sexuality, or in much of anything else. Being someone who believes in God and a metaphysical relationship between the physical world and the spiritual one. We can empirically deduce some important things about God from observation of the created world. And one of those is that sexuality is here to create a high level of diversity, and not conformity.
    I don’t want to focus on the gay issue, but this is one of the reasons that SSM is becoming such an easily accepted matter among so many these days, with increasing speed. People are basically seeing the world as a naturally diverse place, not a conformist place, and a God that demands everyone do things the same way, or they will be punished for being sinful, just doesn’t make much sense anymore from an empirical point of view.
    The idea that mankind was created by some sort of primordial blueprint, the Adam and Eve ideal, and that anything diverging from that blueprint is aberrant, wrong, even sinful, has simply been rejected by empirical science. I don’t think that means that we should say there is no God, but we can certainly say that if there is a God, he created a world that is not built by that process described, even metaphorically, in Genesis. He created a world that evolves in very strange and unpredictable ways, not according to a model of what human beings should be, but according to a process that naturally produces immense diversity as a positive feature, not a negative one. And that part of that diversity includes homosexuals.
    But you are right that this is not, in itself, conclusive about something like SSM, which is a human cultural issue. It’s just that this empirical understanding that diversity is a generally positive and natural thing has removed much of the basis for excluding gays from getting married. Not all of them, but certainly enough to swing the tide in the direction of supporting gay rights and SSM.
    The argument, of course, is not that there’s no difference between men and women, it’s that there’s so much difference within both men and women, that we shouldn’t discriminate against people for being different, or for feeling a natural pair-bonding sexual attraction to people of their own sex, when this is largely a product of the human proclivity for diversity in most everything. And this resonates with people because most people know that there’s all kinds of areas in which we are all different from the norm, and want the freedom to live that way without being discriminated against or excluded from the same institutional and social and cultural protections and opportunities the more “normal” folks have. And so SSM not only seems fair and just, it also seems to protect a general principle which benefits most people.

  70. Church Lady

    That two men or two women can be said to be “married” in the sense that a man and a woman can is just a brute-force assertion, akin to asserting that there are no meaningful differences between male and female.
    I would agree. But as I said above, that’s not the point of SSM. It’s rather built on the opposite premise, that not only are men and women different, but every man is different from every other man, and every woman is different from every other woman. And so the same is true of their marriages. There are no two marriages that are the same either. The diversity of people in their sexual lives and personal relationships is just immense. So just because a gay couple is different from a straight couple in their anatomy shouldn’t be a bar to their forming a committed pair-bonding relationship. They are still people who feel the same basic urge to pair-bond through sexual attraction, which is a force implanted in most of us through evolution. The fact that it comes out in their case as same-sex attraction is just how nature worked for them. Their marriage will of course be different from a heterosexual couple’s marriage. But so will everyone else’s marriage be different in its own ways, depending on a billion different factors. That doesn’t mean our legal system should discriminate against them.
    We must recall that our courts and government are supposed to adhere to actual evidence, in deciding the validity of laws and the basis for discrimination. They are empirically-driven institutions. And unless empirical evidence can be stand up in court to justify that sort of discrimination in marriage laws, it won’t stand. That’s why various state courts keep striking down anti-SSM laws, including the SCOTUS ruling against DOMA. It’s not that they are all gay-biased, it’s that the opposition has a very hard time coming up with evidence to support these laws. And that’s another example of how empiricism is undermining traditional moral given by revealed sources.

  71. grumpy in england

    Normalaity cannot be established empirically

  72. That’s very good, a much more succinct version of what I was going to say, which I’ll of course go ahead and say anyway.
    I don’t think debates about same-sex-marriage really get anywhere, as a rule. Part of the reason is that the arguments for it are simple, if put in immediately utilitarian terms, while the arguments against it are complex and subtle. If the question is “who is going to be immediately materially injured?”, which is what it generally is, then the pro side has pretty much already won, because there is no immediate material injury.
    I concluded ten years or so ago that those of us who see the problem were going to lose the political argument when I heard a Catholic commenting on a Catholic blog say “How is your marriage going to be injured if two gay men get married?” That’s the kind of glib but shallow argument that can pretty much be relied upon to carry the day in our culture.
    More fundamentally, I think, and experience supports this, that if a person doesn’t immediately see the logical absurdity of saying that a marriage can consist of two husbands or two wives, or two “partners” of any of 50 different “genders”, he probably isn’t going to understand or accept any mere argument against it. His conception of what the word “marriage” means has already been so thinned-out that he thinks my view is just as absurd as I think his (well, at this point he won’t stop there, but will also consider me a vicious bigot, in response to which I can only shrug and say “whatever”).
    If someone proposed to raise money for the maintenance of Yosemite by selling advertising space on Half-Dome, he would be unpersuaded by the aesthetic and other arguments against it. The mere fact that he would propose such a thing means the arguments won’t have any weight for him.

  73. Church Lady, I think your philosophy is best described not as empiricism but as utilitarianism. I’m a little surprised that you don’t seem conscious of its materialist foundations, as in your discussion of the purpose of sex. Utilitarianism has its utility in limited sorts of ways, but it leaves out an awful lot, and has produced a civilization of great achievements and equally grave defects. And I think your triumphalism with respect to religion is misplaced; you’re mistaking the currently dominant culture for History.

  74. “Church Lady, I have to say that there is a fair amount of question-begging in your advocacy of empiricism.”
    Right. It sounds to me like what is being said is, “Empiricism can explain everything except that which it cannot explain. But someday it will.” Never mind that empiricism itself cannot be demonstrated by empiricism. This is one of the reasons that the vast majority of philosophers reject Logical Positivism, although a vestigial form of it still lingers both in the sciences and in the popular mind.

  75. Louise

    How are those people who are “on the right side of history” out of touch with Reality? They do not recognise the actual evils of divorce, particularly for children. They do not recognise the evils inherent in separating the sex act from procreation. They want to make irreligion the basis of society, in spite of the fact that most humans are religious. And although they claim to be all about free speech and diversity, they want to silence those of us who diagree with them by the use of evil laws – thus they violate their own principles. And that’s just for starters. :/

  76. Louise

    Empiricism is just one method of knowing things and can only applied to measurable things. Clearly it is very limited. How could empiricism show that slavery is wrong, for example?

  77. Louise

    An African visiting Europe stood in front of a Gothic building and, to the amusement of his European hosts, said in awe, “Can they still build things like that?”
    No they can’t. They haven’t got the heart for it.
    I think there has been very little real progress at all and if anything it’s all gone backwards. Except for modern dentistry and indoor plumbing. I like those. 🙂
    I would like to see a list of all those things which are seen to be on the “right side of history” and then we could evaluate each of them. I’d be interested to see how much I do agree with Church Lady.

  78. Louise

    replaced by the empirical observation that many gay people seem pretty much decent people who ought not to be denied the benefits of legal marriage.
    I’m not sure that people “seeming” to be something is exactly “empiricial.”
    Are they “decent” or not? How do you define “decent”? I’d suggest that the gay lifestyle (as opposed to the mere attraction towards the same sex) is generally very indecent.

  79. Louise

    Even religious people are doing this, as in cafeteria Catholics. That’s often looked down upon by dogmatic Catholics
    All you’re really saying here is that some Catholics are rejecting dogma and others still accept it. So what? That’s the nature of dogma. You either accept it or you don’t. In my observation, people reject it when they want to break (and to keep breaking) one of the Ten Commandments – typically, Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery (and any practice which comes under that general heading). Also in my observation the breaking of this commandment (or any of the others) leads to long term unhappiness for someone. Whereas – as one of my “dogmatic” friends says – “if you live according to the catechism, who do you harm?”
    That’s how I know I’m in touch with Reality. How do you know you are, CL?

  80. Church Lady

    Normalaity cannot be established empirically
    Statistically speaking, it certainly can be. One can find a mean, and average, a standard deviation, etc. But then again, it’s just a statistical artifact, not an actual “thing” that is the ideal “norm”.
    Human beings discern “norms” all the time, by eyeballing stuff. That’s why heterosexuality is considered the norm. And human beings tend to be suspicious of things that are outside the norm, like homosexuality. So I don’t consider anti-gay views to be inherently wrong. It’s part of human nature to form norms, to desire conformity, to police the outliers, and to consider outliers dangerous. There’s often something quite instinctual about it.
    But a good part of human society and culture is about rising above our mere instincts, using our minds, our intelligence, and our creativity, to produce a society that appreciates the value of things outside the norms. Not merely to change and adapt, but to create. Therein lies the beauty, and the difficulty, with human beings.
    Our norms change. Those of wild animals do not, except very slowly. At any given moment, we can measure a norm statistically, but we can’t guarantee it will stay the same. Often it does not. So norms are not intrinsic, they are merely products of observation in a particular time and place.

  81. Church Lady

    “How is your marriage going to be injured if two gay men get married?” That’s the kind of glib but shallow argument that can pretty much be relied upon to carry the day in our culture.
    Glib or not, it’s still a good question, if expanded to include all of us, and not just you. It gets to the actual, empirical evidence of harm that most people look for to see if something is wrong or not. If something cannot be observed to do actual harm (either in the particulars, or overall), in what way can it be said to be wrong, or at least wrong enough to be discriminated against?
    More fundamentally, I think, and experience supports this, that if a person doesn’t immediately see the logical absurdity of saying that a marriage can consist of two husbands or two wives, or two “partners” of any of 50 different “genders”, he probably isn’t going to understand or accept any mere argument against it.
    Now you’re getting at the nub of the problem. Assuming that “logical absurdities” should carry the day would make the computer you use to send these writings of yours to others impossible. Nothing is more logically absurd than quantum mechanics, and yet it works extremely well, as you can see. That’s an example of how empiricism triumphs over logical deduction from first principles. A close examination of how the world actually works shows that it doesn’t conform to what we often assume to be logical means. Human brains do not immediately grasp the true principles by which the universe operates. They have to use a lot of creativity and mind-twisting to see how nature’s logic works. And that’s not just true of physics, but of biology, psychology, sociology, and even religion and spirituality.
    I’m not sure what foundation your “logical absurdity” argument rests on, but whatever it might be, the reality of life will trump it every time. Gay couples exist. Gay couples with children exist. Legal marriage between them exists. If you find that logically absurd, well, fine. I’m sure they don’t need to satisfy your logic to live as couples or raise children or go to work and so on. Same way computers don’t need to satisfy someone’s sense of logic to work. If what you are suggesting merely boils down to some semantic argument about what “true marriage” consists of by some ideal definition, rather than an observational status, it’s basically academic.
    And you’re perfectly right that, absent real-world evidence, more and more people aren’t going to accept logical arguments all on their own. There was a time when one could make logical arguments, and if they agreed with the social norm, they could be accepted prima facia. Now, because empiricism is becoming so deeply embedded in the culture, that’s not longer the case. One can still make the logical argument, but it simply becomes another hypothesis that needs to be supported by the evidence. So logic is no longer the key determinant of reality, but evidence is. Logical conclusions unsupported by the evidence are considered to be false or fanciful.
    Why is why the question of what harm someone’s SSM does to anyone else is quite relevant. And for what it’s worth, I wouldn’t suggest that no possible harm could come of it. I’d just want to see the evidence for it, and weigh it within the overall context of benefit/harm ratios and other legal principles.

  82. Church Lady

    Empiricism is just one method of knowing things and can only applied to measurable things. Clearly it is very limited. How could empiricism show that slavery is wrong, for example?
    That would depend on who was defining right and wrong. Clearly, slave-owners and slave traders didn’t consider it wrong. The society in which they lived didn’t consider it wrong. And most of them were devoutly religious people.
    I would suggest that the most common notion we have of right and wrong has to do with the harm something does to others. Most religious people would agree with that, I think, as would most secularists. They just might disagree about what the hierarchy of harms might be. Christians, for example, might consider “harm to the soul” to be the worst possible harm, since it might endanger their eternal salvation, and therefore it would trump other harms.
    The empirical view would say, fine, let’s observe all of that, and see what we find. In that context, it’s not hard to see by direct observation the harm slavery does to the slave’s body, mind, emotions, family, spirit, and even soul. Do I really need to list these observations in detail?
    But that would of course depend on anyone caring about slaves. Empirical evidence can certainly show that slave owners made a whole lot of money, and created a prosperous culture out of owning slaves. That’s why there was such a huge debate over whether slavery was right or wrong. A consensus has finally emerged on the issue, by recognizing that a society that does not recognize the harms it does to its own members as wrong, is an inferior society. That consensus took a long time to form, but it has a history behind it built on observation and experiment – the American Experiment in democracy and rule by the people being the most prominent example of that. And that’s why a lot of people say that those who supported slavery were on the wrong side of history.

  83. grumphy in England

    so all this talk about getting closer to reality is actually about statistical probability? Statistical probability which has nothing to do with normativity?

  84. Church Lady

    How are those people who are “on the right side of history” out of touch with Reality? They do not recognise the actual evils of divorce, particularly for children.
    I’m going to assume you left out a “not” in your first sentence.
    There certainly are harms associated with divorce. But there are also harms associated with forcing people to remain married who clearly despise each other. I am personally familiar with both, having been raised in a family with a lot of violence and harm, which ended in a terrible divorce. Both at the time, and looking back at it, I’d definitely say it was better that my parents got divorced than that they remain married. But the whole thing was quite tragic.
    The question of divorce has to do with who is to decide whether the harms of staying married outweigh the harms of divorce. And our modern society has decided, rightly I think, that the people who can make that decision are the people in the marriage. Now, clearly, there are harms to ending a marriage frivolously, especially to children. I’m in favor of most couples staying married and working things out, especially when children are involved. But I’m not in favor of the state forcing people to remain married against their will, which I think is a much worse policy overall.
    They do not recognise the evils inherent in separating the sex act from procreation.
    I have to admit to being one of them. I’ve been married for over thirty years, and have two grown children, but well over 99.9% of my sex life has been non-procreative. As is the case for most people, married or not. So I really don’t get this notion of non-procreative sex being evil. It seems to be the overwhelming norm.
    They want to make irreligion the basis of society, in spite of the fact that most humans are religious.
    Here I would agree with you almost entirely – the disagreement coming from your implied notion that there is some monolithic “they” of secularists out there who all believe the same thing, and are somehow united to force people to stop being religious. I’m religious, but I’m also very much in favor of a secular government and society. And most secularists I know of, even the atheists, are fine with religious freedom and the right of people to believe in and worship whatever they want, as long as they respect the divide between Church and State.
    And although they claim to be all about free speech and diversity, they want to silence those of us who diagree with them by the use of evil laws – thus they violate their own principles. And that’s just for starters. :/
    I’m not sure what evil laws you are talking about. Most secularists I know are highly supportive of the first amendment right to free speech. I think many of them would jokingly say that they encourage religious people to speak out, because they make bigger fools of themselves when they do so than secularists could.

  85. Church Lady

    In my observation, people reject it when they want to break (and to keep breaking) one of the Ten Commandments – typically, Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery (and any practice which comes under that general heading). Also in my observation the breaking of this commandment (or any of the others) leads to long term unhappiness for someone. Whereas – as one of my “dogmatic” friends says – “if you live according to the catechism, who do you harm?”
    I think this is a more complicated question than whether one accepts a dogma wholesale, or in part, or rejects it wholly. Most people who reject the dogmas or catechism of the Church don’t do so wholesale. Generally, they see it as partially right, and partially wrong, and are looking for that middle ground.
    For example, most people these days, religious or not, are accepting that sex before marriage is morally neutral. That it’s okay, within reason, to have sex before committing oneself to one partner forever. But most people also aware that this can be abused, and be a negative thing as well. And it can also be a very positive thing. It depends on how one does it.
    But most of these same people would also say that cheating on someone, married or not, is morally depraved and harmful. It may or may not ruin the relationship, but it certainly harms it. Unless, of course, the couple has an open marriage. But even that is generally considered harmful, and it is felt that most marriages would not survive that kind of arrangement.
    As far as long term unhappiness goes, plenty of married couples who don’t suffer adultery also experience long term unhappiness. That’s one of the reasons for divorce. And a lot of adultery happens because the couple is in a marriage where they are experiencing long-term unhappiness.
    So what’s unclear in all this is how the Ten Commandments or the catechism are the standard by which we should judge whether people are moral, religious, or doing harm. There are a whole lot of people who don’t believe entirely in those things who live very happy lives. There are people of other religions living happy lives as well. And moral, religious, and spiritual lives. Ahimsa, the principle of “do no harm to others” has been a major teaching and practice in Buddhism and Hinduism for much longer than it was in Christianity. It’s not even mentioned in the Ten Commandments. So I hardly think we can see such things as some exclusively Christian virtue. Secularists tend to think in similar terms themselves.

  86. grumphy in England

    If you take ‘normal’ simply to mean ‘happens quite a lot in a culture’ there is no rational way for you to assert that the practices in human culture are getting closer to reality. Of course you can carry on and on asserting it but you are not being rational.
    Your answer to Louise’s question – what ’empirically’ makes slavery wrong is effectively to say that slavery is not wrong, unless a culture says it is – that is, you slide to ethical relativism on slavery, since you know no way of showing empirically that it is wrong. But in fact, you have to slide to ethical relativism on every moral question, because no moral question can be decided empirically. And that in effect makes it impossible for human culture to be progressing toward ‘reality’. You can have the ethical relativism or the progessivism but not both.

  87. Church Lady

    I’m not sure that people “seeming” to be something is exactly “empiricial.”
    Are they “decent” or not? How do you define “decent”? I’d suggest that the gay lifestyle (as opposed to the mere attraction towards the same sex) is generally very indecent.

    I’m not refering to empiricism in the laboratory sense of scientific experiments, but of the ordinary, grassroots empiricism of people simply looking around at the world and forming their notions of reality from that. That’s a highly inexact but also highly human process, where a lot of things just “seem” to be a certain way.
    How does anyone know whether someone else is a decent person? Well, generally we just get impressions from knowing them, interacting with them, working with them, and so on. It’s not a lab test, it’s just human life.
    When it comes to gays, most people until fairly recently never knew a gay person, or thought they didn’t. The obvious gays were the outliers, the guys in bars and maybe at some point in lavish parades. But then gays began coming out of the closet, and people began to realize that many of the people they actually had known as decent people in their work, their neighborhood, even their own families were gay. It wasn’t just that crazy mob of Castro Street queers who were gay, it was also doctors, bankers, store clerks, friends, neighbors, family members.
    This is what has really turned the tide towards gay rights. The noticing that a whole lot of gay people are just decent, hard-working, honest, reliable, and moral people. What you call the “gay lifestyle” probably refers to an actual group of gays living in a rather debauched manner. I’m not going to deny that such a sub-group exists. But it’s really not representative of most gay people. And those aren’t the people wanting to get married anyway.
    And as far as it goes, let me remind you that there’s a huge sub-population of heterosexuals who live a pretty debauched lifestyle as well. I don’t see that as a reason to deny heterosexuals as a class from getting married.

  88. Church Lady

    It sounds to me like what is being said is, “Empiricism can explain everything except that which it cannot explain. But someday it will.” Never mind that empiricism itself cannot be demonstrated by empiricism.
    I’m not trying to argue that empiricism is some new absolute. It isn’t. It arises from the simple fact that we have senses that observe the world, and we have minds that can collect and analyze that information. It’s only as true as the data it collects, and the mind that analyzes that data. And since even empiricists acknowledge that one can’t collect perfect data, and one’s mind can never perfectly analyze it, empiricism can’t ever be a perfect answer to anything, much less everything. It would simply argue that it’s the best way we have for testing our ideas, to see just how true or false they are. And then we can adjust those ideas accordingly. Maybe reject them, maybe confirm them, but always conditionally, with an openness to new evidence and new ideas for understanding that evidence.
    Empiricism is just a given of life. We have always used it in one form or another, so it’s not really new. Cavemen used it to hunt and make fire and tools and survive. They used it to look at the stars in the sky and form ideas about where all that came from. Eventually, it became a disciplined, highly intelligent way of observing the way the world, and human beings, worked. It doesn’t have to be in conflict with religion, if religion will also found itself in observation rather than in unproven conjecture with fixed, unchanging ideas about how the world works and what human beings are. I don’t think empirical science has anything close to the final answers on those questions. But neither do I think that any one religion does either.

  89. Robert Gotcher

    I, like Janet, don’t have time to delve into this conversation, but I would say that a cogent response to the question of the relationship between observation/experience and dogma can be found in Newman’s A Grammar of Assent, which was written in response to Hume’s skepticism (or, if you like, scepticism). Luigi Guissani also addresses it in The Religious Sense. I think Blondel works the same topic in A Letter on Apologetics and History and Dogma.
    The bottom line: there is a difference between evidence and proof. Dogma can’t be proven from observable data, but it can be (and, indeed, must) shown not to contradict available evidence, both in generally and personally. The preponderance of evidence can be seen to point to the probability of the truth of a dogma–making a rational basis for an act of faith. The question of whether dogma corresponds to observed and experienced reality is a valid one–one that we should ask with all due humility about our own intellectual ability.

  90. Church Lady

    Church Lady, I think your philosophy is best described not as empiricism but as utilitarianism.
    That’s fair enough. But the two are not mutually exclusive. What works could be defined differently than what is empirically observed to work, but in the modern age, they are pretty much synonymous.
    I’d have to say also that I’m not a pure empiricist at all in my views on reality. I am a strong believer that we have an intuitive connection to God, to the Divine Reality, which supercedes and informs us about the meaning and purpose of life. But I’d also say that I believe this because I experience it, not because I’ve read about it and believe those sources to be authoritative. So my sense of what God is and how God interacts with me and the humanity and the world as a physical reality is very complex, and not at all certain, precisely because I approach even that with what is essentially an empirical attitude. Even when I read religious or spiritual literature, I am not doing so with the goal of finding some authoritative source I can believe in, but with the view to seeing what other people have actually experienced and thought about these experiences, to help inform me about my own experience and life.
    But I would agree that empiricism and utilitarianism have produced many grave faults, precisely because they, and the human beings who employ them, are inherently imperfect. Unfortunately, you really can’t make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. But you also really can learn from trial and error, if you faithfully observe the results and have the courage to admit you were wrong.
    I’m a little surprised that you don’t seem conscious of its materialist foundations, as in your discussion of the purpose of sex.
    I’m very aware that a lot of scientific empiricists are materialists, but also that many are not, including me. If I was talking with such people, I’d be arguing against some of their conclusions about the wider matters of life. But I wouldn’t be arguing against the facts of evolution or the age of the universe and so on.
    As for sex, we do have to recognize its biological nature and purpose, which is more than merely reproduction. If reproduction were the only purpose, we wouldn’t have sex at all. Asexual reproduction is much more effective. The biological purpose of sex is to increase the odds of species survival by creating a very diverse population, with diverse immune systems, diverse physical characteristics, diverse mental qualities, different behavioral inclinations, etc. This increases the ability of sexual creatures (not just human beings) to adapt and survive to changing conditions, including threats from parasites, diseases, and other creatures.
    These are just observable physical facts of life and evolution. If you are trying to ask the question of a higher purpose to sex, I would say that there is indeed such a thing, but that it doesn’t negate these material facts. It has to complement them, not try to superimpose some kind of ideology of purpose upon them.
    I find a spiritual purpose in sexuality, which is one reason I laugh at those who say non-procreative sex is evil. I’d say quite the opposite. Truly spiritual sex is a form of non-procreative sex. But I’m sure that it differs for others.
    And I think your triumphalism with respect to religion is misplaced; you’re mistaking the currently dominant culture for History.
    That could certainly be true. Only time will tell. It wasn’t too long ago that the dominant culture was proclaiming the triumph of western Christian religion as the obvious historical reality, with God on it’s side. Everything has a way of rising and falling in waves.
    As I’ve said, I don’t think modern empiricism has yet come terribly close to a full appreciation of reality. I just think that the basic approach of empiricism itself is here to stay, and will simply become more inclusive over time. I’m not even suggesting that religion will go away, and some secular atheist materialist science fiction future will hold sway. I would seriously doubt that. But I do think that empiricism will continue to erode traditional religious dogmas, to the point that religion in general, if it wishes to survive, will have to switch over to a provisional, empirical approach. More consistent with Buddhism in that respect than traditional, dogmatic Christianity. But there are many empirical, non-dogmatic strains of Christianity which could emerge over time and prove more adaptable.
    Hard to say, really, since I think that empiricism shows that human beings really are religious by nature, and that hard atheism is probably never going to rise above a small minority. I think we really are both spiritual and empirical by nature, and so the two should not and even cannot be in genuine conflict. For that reason I’d suggest that the most natural disposition is that of spiritual empiricism. A religion which takes that approach has a future, I think. Those that do not, are going to at the very least have to buck a long-term trend.

  91. Church Lady

    Grumpy,
    I think you are correct that empiricism supports moral relativism, and that it doesn’t have some fixed definition of right or wrong by its very nature. While correct as an observation, I don’t see how this is a fault in empiricism, rather than a virtue. Can you tell me why that would be the case? Honestly, I mean that out of all sincerity.
    I’m not quite understanding the need for some absolute right or wrong by which to measure all things. I don’t know anyone or any system which doesn’t take into account all sorts of relativism in its assessments of right and wrong. Even the Bible and Judaism and Christianity come up will all sorts of nuances based on context and observed facts. So it’s not a question of relativism vs absolutism, its a question of how much relativism. And that itself is a relative matter.
    As for slavery, I cited that because it shows that even people who believe in absolutes can support some pretty abominable things, and then change their tune. The southern culture which supported slavery to the death was a highly religious, moral, Christian culture. It saw nothing wrong with slavery, and much right and justified about it. And yet, other Christians disagreed vehemently and couldn’t understand how these Christians could support such a thing. So religious values are hardly some kind of fixed matter either. They couldn’t tell us for sure that slavery was wrong either. So I don’t see why you are picking on empiricism for not being able to tell us anything absolute about morality. Religion can’t either, even if it claims that it can. At least empiricism doesn’t make those kinds of absolutist claims.
    If you take ‘normal’ simply to mean ‘happens quite a lot in a culture’ there is no rational way for you to assert that the practices in human culture are getting closer to reality.
    Sure you can. If the norm says that the earth is flat, and that changes over time to the norm saying that the earth is round, that’s progress towards reality. Even better if they say it’s an oblate spheroid, but that’s getting a bit more technical than necessary for practical purposes. Unless you’re a NASA scientist working a satellite orbit for GPS synchronization.
    If a culture is doing rain dances to affect the weather, and at some point they realize that doesn’t work, and that they are better off with satellite-based weather forecasting, and using irrigation methods to keep their crops alive in drought, that’s also a sign of progress towards reality.
    It does get trickier with more complicated questions of human culture, but even there I’d suggest there’s a definite movement towards realism than can be observed, as well as movements away from realism. But I certainly admit that’s tricky, and that within traditionalism there’s plenty of genuine realism at work than can be appreciated by empirical methods.
    Of course you can carry on and on asserting it but you are not being rational.
    I wouldn’t say that all human practices are moving towards reality. Some, perhaps many, are not. What I’m saying is that empiricism helps us separate the wheat from the chaff, and that life itself does a similar job in the long run.
    On the other hand, I must admit that something doesn’t have to literally be true for it to work. Religion is an example of that. The literal claims of religion don’t have to actually be true for belief in them to confer benefits. The “binding together” element of religion confers very strong benefits to a culture, regardless of what its metaphysical beliefs might be. The Druids or whoever built Stonehenge may have believed all kinds of strange and untrue things about why the stars and planets were moving as they did, but if that helped them sustain an observational grasp of how the seasons worked and how the sun rose in the sky so as to properly time the planting of crops, so much the better. It worked for them, whereas if they didn’t have that kind of religious awe towards the heavens, they may not have tracked the movements of the sun and stars so closely.
    And the same goes for a lot of things. There’s plenty of good practices in traditional religion that are sound for reasons that can be affirmed empirically. And then there’s those that can’t, but which still help bind people together in communities, which helps quite a lot. Part of the problem with modern empiricism is not being able to tell the two apart, and not being able to appreciate the value of unsupportable beliefs that nevertheless confer positive benefits.
    And that in effect makes it impossible for human culture to be progressing toward ‘reality’. You can have the ethical relativism or the progessivism but not both.
    This certainly makes sense in a logical vacuum, but not in the real world. And that’s the problem with trying to solve real world problems from a purely theoretical logical perspective.
    The way out of this logical conundrum is to recognize that we, as human beings, don’t need to know beforehand what reality is in order to progress towards it. Reality is a kind of “strange attractor” that we can’t help but move towards in our own stumbling manner. At best, we can notice a certain direction being taken. We can do experiments and tests. We can see all of human history as a series of experiments and tests that help us stumble towards reality. Maybe like drunken sailors much of the time, but even then, with a certain direction that emerges merely from the process of bumping into real stuff.
    Empiricism accelerates this learning process. That’s it’s value. We’d get there anyway, eventually, even by sheer random wandering, but it’s quicker if we make tests to guide us.
    The vanity of some forms of religion is that it already knows the destination and the map, and all we have to do is follow it, and that we shouldn’t subject that map to any testing, because it’s just true. But if the map really is true, it should be verifiable by testing it empirically. And if those empirical tests show the map to be faulty, what to do? Believe in the map anyway?

  92. “For that reason I’d suggest that the most natural disposition is that of spiritual empiricism.”
    Here you come up against a question similar to that of Catholics arguing for natural law, and having it be confused with what is merely natural. There certainly doesn’t seem to be much evidence in human history that yours is the most natural position. You might argue that it’s the best fit for what people really want and need, which is analogous to the Catholic natural law view.
    “Empiricism is just a given of life. We have always used it in one form or another, so it’s not really new.”
    Sure. It’s a given that people try to figure out what’s happening and act accordingly. Trying to extend that, in the very materialistic-naturalistic way you do, into an entire philosophy of life, is another matter. I know you say you’re not a materialist, but you seem to regard material fact as the only thing admissible as evidence, which I consider a functionally materialist view.
    Your response to my “logical absurdity” illustration about ssm makes my point. Not the point that it’s a bad idea, but that it’s something you either see or don’t see. I’m not sure what your point in there about computers is–they are pure logic. The way they work doesn’t depend on quantum mechanics any more than anything else in the world does. You can implement the same logic with switches made of wood; electricity just works a whole lot better.

  93. Church Lady

    Robert,
    The bottom line: there is a difference between evidence and proof. Dogma can’t be proven from observable data, but it can be (and, indeed, must) shown not to contradict available evidence, both in generally and personally. The preponderance of evidence can be seen to point to the probability of the truth of a dogma–making a rational basis for an act of faith. The question of whether dogma corresponds to observed and experienced reality is a valid one–one that we should ask with all due humility about our own intellectual ability.
    I agree with this whole-heartedly. But what happens when the empirical findings strongly contradict the dogma? Which do we go with? Do we still defer to the dogma, and presume that we are simply not intellectually gifted enough, or do not have sufficient observational data to see how true it is? Or do we reject the dogma, or at least those parts of it that are contradicted by the evidence or fail to find sufficient evidence to support them.

  94. Robert Gotcher

    This is where the question of authority comes it. As I said, I really don’t have time to delve into this conversation, but Walker Percy does a good job of addressing authority in The Message in the Bottle, and Josef Pieper, depending on Newman, addresses it in his essay on Faith.
    We should always seek the truth. We can’t wait to act on our convictions until we have airtight empirical evidence for their veracity; we’d be paralyzed. We sometimes have to depend on authority.

  95. Church Lady

    so all this talk about getting closer to reality is actually about statistical probability?
    No, it’s not. I merely point out that what is called a “norm” is a numbers game. What most people do. It doesn’t make it right or wrong, it’s just the norm. Slavery was the statistical norm for black people in the ante-bellum south. That doesn’t make it right, but it does make it the norm.
    In other words, my reference to statistical norms is just a way of measuring what cultures believe in and practice at any given time, and then using that to measure the changes against it over time, to give some reality to any notion of progress one is positing.
    Statistical probability which has nothing to do with normativity?
    Statistical probability has everything to do with normativity. It’s basically the definition of the term.

  96. Church Lady

    Robert,
    We should always seek the truth. We can’t wait to act on our convictions until we have airtight empirical evidence for their veracity; we’d be paralyzed. We sometimes have to depend on authority.
    Again, I completely agree. Even empiricists have to depend on the authority and morality of other empiricists who have studied these things in greater depth than any of us could do on our own. The question remains as to who we should trust and what methods of investigation we should rely on. But bottom line is we have to live our own lives as best we can, and make our own mistakes and triumphs, and reap the consequences. You still have to go on what your heart tells you is true, even if the evidence isn’t yet in.

  97. Louise

    No-fault divorce materially damages many marriages b/c we know how easy it is to divorce now and when couples hit very rough patches – as most will do – it is more likely than in former decades that people will seek a divorce. What they have not yet worked out is that divorce tends to create more problems than it fixes, but meanwhile marriage in general is harmed. Now, if you introduce something so bizarre as same-sex “marriage” into the equation you further destabilise the family, and marriage, by destroying notions of mother and father and the link that is supposed to bind them to their children.
    So the question “what will gay marriage do to harm your marriage” is pretty easy to answer. The answer is quite simply that it destabilises all marriages. I’m sorry to be the one to point this out but any marriage can be destabilised (and seemingly destroyed) if one of the spouses develops a mental illness or something similar, becomes unhappy and then mistakenly thinks that their spouse is to blame. I’ve seen this more times than I care to think about. This can happen even to people who are good, and who have had a strong marriage, and who have normally behaved like responsible adults.

  98. Louise

    I’m going to assume you left out a “not” in your first sentence.
    Why? I was talking about the people who are “on the right side of history” (i.e. “progressives”) and that they are out of touch with Reality.

  99. Louise

    D’oh! Forgot the !!

  100. Louise

    I think Grumpy’s remarks about relativism make mince meat of your arguments about empiricism. If everything is relative, there can hardly be any gloating of one side over another about who is on “the right side of history.” Unless the phrase merely means those who, by chance, happen to back the side which ends up gaining the upper hand. And that’s more like barracking for a sports team than anything else.
    As a matter of sincere interest, I’d be very interested to know if you believe in God, Church Lady, and if you do, whether this God is a personal being, or an impersonal force. Obviously you are not obliged to answer, but I am genuinely interested.

  101. Louise

    But if the map really is true, it should be verifiable by testing it empirically. And if those empirical tests show the map to be faulty, what to do? Believe in the map anyway?
    But empiricism does not show the map to be faulty.

  102. Louise

    The discussion we are having is about History as some kind of standard (even as a moral absolute) or as “God”.
    All our discussion revolves essentially around morality – right and wrong. That is what this standard (History) is all about. Otherwise how could anybody be on the right or wrong side of it?
    So, Church Lady, my point about the Ten Commandments and the catechism, was concerning specifically moral actions, rather than say the religious beliefs underpinning them. Which is to say that I agree with you that non-believers could in that way be morally upright. They could observe the Ten Commandments and the catechism – at least as far as they pertain to other human beings and they could be living a very good life.
    here are a whole lot of people who don’t believe entirely in those things who live very happy lives.
    1. How do you know? I’d suggest in fact, that you don’t know this at all!
    2. Even if they are, it is nevertheless observable that breaking the Ten Commandments or failing to live out the moral injunctions of the catechism will result in harm done to someone. I deliberately worded it that way to make it plain that the persons doing wrong may themselves not suffer as a result (although I think they probably do), but someone will be harmed.
    Ahimsa, the principle of “do no harm to others” has been a major teaching and practice in Buddhism and Hinduism for much longer than it was in Christianity.
    Fine. So now explain to me who would be harmed if we lived by the Ten Commandments or the catechism. Because my point is that if one really wanted to “do no harm” one would seriously try to live according to the Ten Commandments/the catechism. I’m asserting that if we depart from this, we will harm somebody.
    Your arguments in favour of divorce are facile, btw.

  103. Louise

    italics off! grrr

  104. Louise

    I see divorce and so-called same-sex “marriage” as being equally harmful to children (and their parents), which is why I’m using them as examples of what harm we do to people when we ignore the Reality of marriage and family as it is meant to be.

  105. Louise

    So when you are reminding me (as if I needed it) that heterosexuals behave badly too, I would say that yes, the needs of children are neglected very badly indeed whenever adults, including their parents, put their own wants (and sex lives etc) ahead of the real and basic needs of the children. It’s horrible to watch and worse to live through. And I have had more than enough exposure to the gay lifestyle to know that most people in it are incapable of giving children what they need – a stable home.
    Children are harmed by “progressive” morality.

  106. Louise

    really sorry about the italics!!

  107. No-fault divorce is a good example of the kind of situation where the apparently obvious simple answer has not-so-obvious ramifications. I’ve often wondered that so many women vigorously support ssm, because I think in the long run it’s not going to be in the best interests of most women, because it further weakens the whole concept of marriage. But it could be one of those issues where single women support it significantly more than married ones.
    Most women want to have children, and on the whole marriage is the best arrangement for doing so, in spite of the risk of having a really bad marriage.
    I’ll fix your italics in a bit.

  108. Marianne

    A famous empiricist, Bertrand Russell, wrote: “If it were certain that without Jews the world would be a paradise, there could be no valid objection to Auschwitz; but if it is much more probably that the world resulting from such methods would be a hell, we can allow free play to our natural humanitarian revulsion against cruelty.”
    If that’s empiricism, it’s not for me. And it just screams the need for moral dogma.

  109. Indeed. There’s also Ivan Karamazov’s famous speculation: suppose that torturing to death a child would make the world a happy place for ever–would you do it?

  110. Church Lady

    I don’t really know whether in the aggregate if no-fault divorce does more damage than it does good. If it does, at least the damage is done by the married couple themselves, rather than done to them by the State. I am basically of the view that people need to be responsible and make right, intelligent, and sensible decisions about how they live. They should not be protected from their own stupidity, because that also prevents them from learning how to be responsible.
    How exactly would it work to prevent people from getting divorced? Lengthy and expensive judicial proceedings that do little but enrich lawyers? You can’t force people to love each other or care for each other.
    It’s quite true that mental illness or drug abuse and other things can wreck marriages. I don’t see how that changes the equation. Should people who are mentally ill be prevented from divorcing, or should people be prevented from divorcing their mentally ill spouse? I don’t see how either way anyone benefits from that.
    There’s a lot of tragic outcomes in marriage, whether it ends in divorce or not. At least with divorce there’s a chance to start over, and be free of something that just isn’t working, and may even be abusive and wretched. I don’t think you can legislate against frivolity. That would be an even worse outcome in the long run. Even if you could, it wouldn’t stop people from living apart and having “affairs” as if they weren’t legally married. It would just complicate the financial situation.
    Having no-fault divorce has certainly changed the marriage picture, and I think people are having to reconsider what it means to get married, and what the responsibilities and commitment mean.
    I’m happy to have a long-term marriage in which we got over our difficulties and grew in our love for one another, but I’m glad I wasn’t forced to do that, but freely chose it. Nor would I have wanted my spouse to stick it out for legal reasons rather than out of love and personal commitment. People do certainly make mistakes, but I don’t think it’s right to blame “no-fault” divorce for that. Blame the people themselves.

  111. Church Lady

    So the question “what will gay marriage do to harm your marriage” is pretty easy to answer. The answer is quite simply that it destabilises all marriages.
    I have to ask, where is the evidence for this?
    Gay marriage has been legal in Massachusetts for ten years now, and there’s no evidence of any change in heterosexual marriage rates or divorce since then. The same is true everywhere in the world that SSM has been legalized. So while you can claim that gay marriage destabilizes all marriages, that appears so far to just be a supposition in your own mind.
    I have a very hard time imagining how SSM would actually de-stabilize an otherwise stable marriage. Perhaps if one of the spouses was gay, and now felt empowered to divorce and remarry someone of their own sex. But it doesn’t require SSM for that to happen. It already does, especially since gays have come out of the closet, just without a marriage following. So even to prevent those few instances, it would require more than preventing SSM. It would require that gays go back into the closet and have terrible pressure put on them to remain there.
    It certainly hasn’t destabilized my marriage or anyone else’s that I know of. But I’m open to evidence to the contrary if you can come up with some. The courts would like to see that evidence as well.

  112. Church Lady

    Louise,
    I think Grumpy’s remarks about relativism make mince meat of your arguments about empiricism. If everything is relative, there can hardly be any gloating of one side over another about who is on “the right side of history.”
    While I don’t agree with Grumpy, I do agree that gloating is usually out of order when it comes to making proclamations about history. Often people do make premature declarations of victory before enough evidence comes in. So one really does have to be judicious about it. In that sense, empiricism may not support someone’s claim to be on the right side of history. Like everything else, it has to be backed up with real evidence. If it’s used as a conversation-stopper, I think that’s an abuse. It’s best use is as a conversation starter.
    Unless the phrase merely means those who, by chance, happen to back the side which ends up gaining the upper hand. And that’s more like barracking for a sports team than anything else.
    Yes, I agree again. People do try to twist the evidence to support their “side”, and that’s generally pretty offensive to me. But as with sports teams, there really are winners and losers in history. And some players are just more talented and skillful than others.
    As a matter of sincere interest, I’d be very interested to know if you believe in God, Church Lady, and if you do, whether this God is a personal being, or an impersonal force. Obviously you are not obliged to answer, but I am genuinely interested.
    Yes, I do believe in God, both as a personal being, and as an impersonal force. It would be complicated to explain, but to make it short I feel that God is far more diverse in nature than even human beings, or the whole of the species of life on earth. That is how God is able to relate to everyone so personally, and yet also universally.

  113. Church Lady

    But empiricism does not show the map to be faulty
    If that’s true, then the map is a useful one. But you only know that by testing it out, not merely by believing in it from the get go. If you take the view that nothing could possibly contradict the map, it’s not a useful map at all. Falsifiability is a requirement of all empiricism.

  114. Church Lady

    Mac,
    All our discussion revolves essentially around morality – right and wrong. That is what this standard (History) is all about. Otherwise how could anybody be on the right or wrong side of it?
    That’s only true if you see everything as a moral issue. I do not. Many things are right or wrong in a strictly empirical sense, with little or no moral component in the obvious sense, unless of course being wrong about something also leads to baseless moral confusions.
    Take the case of Galileo, for example. The heart of the issue was the matter of whether the moons of Jupiter move in circles about it. That’s a simple matter of right and wrong. In this case, Galileo was right, and Aristotle and those who supported his model of the universe were wrong. In itself, no big deal. But that wrong led the Church to commit torture and trial and imprisonment upon Galileo, and the censoring of his works. Largely because they didn’t want their authority questioned. I would say that’s a moral wrong. Even the Church now agrees, and has I believe issued an apology. A little late, perhaps, but better than never.
    So being wrong on the facts can lead to moral wrongs also.
    1. How do you know? I’d suggest in fact, that you don’t know this at all!
    I could ask you the same thing. How do you know they don’t? If neither of us actually know, what exactly are we arguing about?
    I’ll certainly admit that I don’t know with absolute certainty, but I do not see evidence of a lack of holiness or sanctity or human maturity, love, kindness and wisdom on the part of many who are not Christians living by the Christian revelation and catechism. And I have much personal experience of people who do have these great virtues and holiness about them. And many who do not, as with Christians.
    2. Even if they are, it is nevertheless observable that breaking the Ten Commandments or failing to live out the moral injunctions of the catechism will result in harm done to someone.
    I do not see that harm being necessary, either to the doer or others. For example, let’s take the third commandment, “Do not make any graven images”. This is a pretty tricky one for Christians, since unlike Jews, they make a lot of images of the Divine, including icons of Jesus, and the painting on the ceiling of the Sistine Chapel. And yet, somehow they consider this okay, and have made a very relativistic interpretation of this commandment that allows them to do what no Jew would ever do.
    Now, personally, I don’t see anything wrong with what Christians do, even if it violates the third commandment. I think it’s fine for them to rationalize what they do any way they like to feel okay about it. I don’t think God cares one iota about that matter. Which is what I mean. The Ten Commandments were a product of a particular religious movement at a particular time in history, and had value for them certainly, but should not be extrapolated for all.
    Likewise with the Commandment “thou shalt not kill”. Obviously both Jews and Christians killed a lot of people, both in war and for all sorts of crimes, including some pretty minor stuff. And of course they have rationalized that in ways that suited their time and place and needs. Which again shows how relative and context-driven these so-called moral absolutes are. If you can justify all the killings and torturings of the Church, there’s really not much you can’t justify. Easy to say now that such things are morally wrong, but doing so at the time would have got you burned at the stake for heresy.
    On the other hand, I’m not a pacifist, so I do think there are times one needs to kill others. It’s never going to be easy to be “right” about that either. But that brings up another example of how being wrong in the factual sense can lead to moral wrongs also.
    Take the Iraq war, which was promoted based on wrong assessment of the threat Saddam represented to the US. Perhaps an honest mistake driven by ambition, perhaps outright lies (probably the latter). But the fact remains, that invading by false justification resulted in a lot of terrible deaths and strife and seemingly endless conflicts, as we see. A lot of killing went on, much of it justified as a kind of crusade by a very religious President, and widely supported by religious people here in the US who felt they were acting in accord with the Ten Commandments. What do you make of that?
    Fine. So now explain to me who would be harmed if we lived by the Ten Commandments or the catechism.
    Well, certainly someone would be harmed who worshipped a different God than the Judeo-Christian God, who was not allowed to do that. Likewise, someone who worships images of the Divine would also suffer.
    Likewise, I could imagine situations where every one of the ten commandments could be violated to serve a higher purpose. Is stealing Nazi code-breaking machines in WWII a violation of the eight commandment? Should one honor one’s father when he is sexually abusing you? Or just beating you? Does honoring the Sabbath mean that Jesus broke the law when he healed people on the Sabbath? It seems to me that expediency is often the rule here.
    So sure, I can see that someone who lives strictly by these commandments could end up doing themselves and others a lot of harm. But in the more general sense, most of them are pretty decent rules to live by, if one is a relativist. An absolutist, no chance.
    Because my point is that if one really wanted to “do no harm” one would seriously try to live according to the Ten Commandments/the catechism.
    I think that really depends on how one interprets these rules. Some I’d throw away wholesale. But one can certainly find a fair way to live most of them within reasonable limits.
    But these are not the only, nor do I think they are the best, set of rules to live by. I’m more impressed with Buddhism’s Eightfold Path, to be honest, including their admonitions about right livelihood, right conduct, right speech, and right intention, when it comes to moral matters. More room for nuance and wisdom to come into play, less absolutism. And I’m not even a Buddhist, though I do find many of their teachings very attractive, especially the Four Noble Truths. But honestly, I think a serious application to Buddhist morality would yield better results than Christian catechism. And I think history shows a better record among Buddhists than among Christians in that regard. Jains and Hindus too. And Taoists. In fact, other than Muslims, its hard to think of any major religion that does worse than Christians on that count, historically speaking. Though I give the Christians credit for getting their act together in recent times. Except for that Iraq thing.
    I’m asserting that if we depart from this, we will harm somebody.
    That depends on the departure. As Buddha said, sometimes you have to break the rules to do a greater good. And sometimes rules are just too restrictive, and don’t allow for human reality.
    For example, I can certainly see the justification for someone in a long-suffering, miserable marriage having an affair just to regain some kind of self-respect and love in their life. I could also see how coveting thy neighbors goods, house, wife, etc., could lead a person to get off their ass and make a life for themselves. And I can definitely see how only worshiping the Christian God could severely limit one’s understanding of and intimacy with God. For some, perhaps not, for many others, yes indeed. But being both a monist and a polytheist, I can see both sides of that. I just consider monotheism to be taking the worst of both and leaving behind much of the best. But that’s just me.

  115. Louise

    Thanks for fixing the italics, Maclin. 🙂
    “No-fault divorce is a good example of the kind of situation where the apparently obvious simple answer has not-so-obvious ramifications.”
    Exactly.
    “Most women want to have children, and on the whole marriage is the best arrangement for doing so, in spite of the risk of having a really bad marriage.”
    Right.
    Church Lady, I don’t have much time right now but I think there is plenty of empirical evidence that divorce generally (which is permitted and recognised by the state – and which in fact was re-introduced by the state) and no-fault divorce in particular are very damaging to society and to the children of those marriages. I will look up references when I next get a chance. Also, in fact, the state does impose no-fault on many people, if you think about it. There are lots of people who do not want their marriages to end, but the state does so anyway, merely b/c the other spouse files and the state uses its power to force people into horrendous situations. Again, I’ll get those references later.

  116. Louise

    Also, Galileo was never tortured. Go do a bit of quick reading on that if you have time. 🙂

  117. Well, Church Lady, you’re kinda getting into the realm of rather lame anti-Christianism now. Not that there isn’t a lot that deserves criticism, but it’s a pretty one-sided picture.
    But since you mention Galileo: I’ve often thought that in the ssm debate, it’s the Christians who are in the Galileo position now, being pressured to say that what they know to be true is false. Galileo’s supposed “but it still moves” will be echoed by our “but it’s still not marriage.”

  118. Robert Gotcher

    “Yes, I do believe in God, both as a personal being, and as an impersonal force. It would be complicated to explain, but to make it short I feel that God is far more diverse in nature than even human beings, or the whole of the species of life on earth. That is how God is able to relate to everyone so personally, and yet also universally.”
    A very Von Balthasarian approach.

  119. Church Lady

    Children are harmed by “progressive” morality.
    Most likely true, just as they are harmed by virtually every kind of morality, including Christian morality. One can’t ever make this world a harm-free paradise, you know? It’s certainly not the intention of progressives to harm children, and if you ask them, they will all say that they are trying to reduce harm to children as much as they can. I tried as hard as I could not to harm my own children, but I’m sure that I did in ways I never intended. That’s how life is. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t.
    In other words, in my experience most heterosexuals are also incapable of giving children what they need, including stable homes. It’s a human problem, not a “gay problem”. Even if you are right, I don’t see how you are going to stop gay people from having children, since they’ve been doing that basically forever. In the closet and out. Refusing to legalize gay marriage won’t change that.

  120. Church Lady

    Indeed. There’s also Ivan Karamazov’s famous speculation: suppose that torturing to death a child would make the world a happy place for ever–would you do it?
    Talk about begging the question. What evidence do we have that this is even remotely possible? It sounds like a sort of trap set up so that we can say: “See, this fellow supports torturing children! What a monster!”
    Same with Russell and Auschwitz.
    Is this just a game of one-upmanship to enable us to claim moral superiority over one another on purely theoretical nonsensical grounds?

  121. Church Lady

    Btw, Bertrand Russell was a famous atheist, but he wasn’t an empiricist, he was a mathematician. Big difference. That’s why he’s capable of taking on such highly theoretical questions without seeing them as human realities, just mathematical conundrums.
    An empiricist not only wouldn’t pose such a question, he wouldn’t answer it either, since there’s no empirical basis for it in the first place.

  122. Church Lady

    I see divorce and so-called same-sex “marriage” as being equally harmful to children (and their parents), which is why I’m using them as examples of what harm we do to people when we ignore the Reality of marriage and family as it is meant to be.
    Yes, I’m sure that seems logically consistent to you, but you still haven’t provided anything more than anecodatal personal evidence that either of these things are literally doing any aggregate harm.
    I’m sure in particular instances divorce can do harm to children, but I also know that in many particular instances it’s a good thing for children, to get out of a loveless, violent, or conflicted household. What the total harm-equation comes to I’m not sure we can say. As I said before, I think the best thing to do is let people decide what’s best for themselves and for their children. They won’t always make the right decision, but at least they made the decision themselves and have to own it.
    Likewise, I still don’t see any evidence from you that SSM does anyone any harm. Nor do I see you offering any evidence to show that marriage is “meant to be” a certain way that would exclude SSM. I get the whole notion that marriage is best with two sane, responsible men and women, but that’s fairly seldom the case. Two sane, responsible men or women seems preferable to me to a household with irresponsible heterosexuals raising children.
    And anyway, SSM and children are two different things. Plenty of SSM couples have no children, and plenty of gay parents have children without being in a SSM at all. And if you are talking about adoption, that’s a different story altogether.
    For what it’s worth, I lived in San Francisco in the 1970s, and I saw a lot of that debauched gay lifestyle I gather you are referring to. I also saw a lot of very responsible and kind and loving gay people. And I saw friends die from AIDS. My basic conclusion is that being gay is harder than being hetero, and not just because of cultural intolerance, but that this shouldn’t lead to discrimination against gays, any more than we should discriminate against people with, say, Asperger’s syndrome, and not allow them to get married or have children.

  123. Church Lady

    Louise,
    I think there is plenty of empirical evidence that divorce generally (which is permitted and recognised by the state – and which in fact was re-introduced by the state) and no-fault divorce in particular are very damaging to society and to the children of those marriages.
    I’d like to see any impartial studies on the phenomena. It could certainly be the case that you’re right. I think the better case to be made along these lines is that sex before marriage leads to single motherhood, especially among the poor and among minorities.
    Again, I would personally counsel people to try to work out their marriage problems, but I’m not in favor of forcing people to stay married if either of them wants out. As a child of divorce, I’m aware of the harms on both sides, whether one stays together or not. Personally, I’m glad my parents divorced, because at least the fighting stopped. But it was no picnic either way.
    I don’t think that marriage should be a hostage situation, where if one person wants out, but the other doesn’t, they can’t leave. Time to move on and limit the damage.
    Also, children are far more resilient than many people think. Thank God. They can overcome a lot of bad things, far worse than divorce, including bad parents.

  124. Church Lady

    Well, Church Lady, you’re kinda getting into the realm of rather lame anti-Christianism now. Not that there isn’t a lot that deserves criticism, but it’s a pretty one-sided picture.
    Well I apologize then. That wasn’t my intention. I was just trying to counter your apparent Christian/Ten Commandments/Catechism triumphalism. I love many aspects of Christianity, and appreciate its historical contributions to civilization. But it has many serious detriments also, and the notion that one can’t do harm in following it is one of those things I find rather callow and self-serving, and false to boot. I even think it goes against Christian doctrine itself. Or should.
    The fact that I think there are better religions and views out there doesn’t mean I think it can’t be a very good one, especially for those who find it most attractive.

  125. Church Lady

    As for Galileo being tortured, you’re right, he wasn’t. He was brought down to the torture chamber, shown the instruments of torture, and told that this is what he would be facing unless he recanted. So he recanted. I consider that the moral equivalent of actual torture. But maybe you think that’s an acceptable method for helping someone find their way to the truth?

  126. Church Lady

    But since you mention Galileo: I’ve often thought that in the ssm debate, it’s the Christians who are in the Galileo position now, being pressured to say that what they know to be true is false. Galileo’s supposed “but it still moves” will be echoed by our “but it’s still not marriage.”
    Really, you are going to go there, equating the position of anti-SSM advocates to Galileo?
    Please, tell me about the instruments of torture facing you unless you recant? Tell me about the prisons you will be put in, the trials you will endure, the authorities who will pronounce a verdict upon you without the any recourse to a lawful defense?
    Look, I understand that a certain amount of public opprobrium faces those who oppose SSM. But the first amendment protects you as much as it does them. Just not more than them. They have the right to express their disapproval of you just as you do of them. And both of you face the consequences of that. None of which amounts to anything approach what Galileo faced.

  127. I didn’t say any of that. I said “pressured to say that what they know to be true is false.” That’s a fact. The analogy is to the intellectual situation.
    One of the things I meant in referring to “lame anti-Christianism”: taking the Galileo case as a paradigm of the relationship of Christianity/Catholicism and the world of ideas is an indication to me that the person has not engaged very deeply with the subject.
    Re the Karamazov reference: I thought your question “What evidence do we have that this is even remotely possible?” was pretty funny, and indicative of the size of the gap between us about these things. Of course it’s not something Karamazov (or Dostoevsky) considered possible. It’s a philosophical question concerning the very serious matter of ethical ends and means.

  128. Louise

    I’m not certain Galileo was actually shown the instruments of torture etc – although it is certainly fitting with that period of history.
    I haven’t linked to studies yet b/c I haven’t had time and may not have time until a bit later today. So it’s not that the evidence isn’t there, but I notice you don’t bring anything except anecdote to the table either.
    “Yes, I do believe in God, both as a personal being, and as an impersonal force. It would be complicated to explain, but to make it short I feel that God is far more diverse in nature than even human beings, or the whole of the species of life on earth. That is how God is able to relate to everyone so personally, and yet also universally.”
    Well, that is very interesting. So do you pray? I’m only asking by way of interest, not b/c this is any extension of our debate/discussion. May I ask if you have any thoughts about who Christ was? My questions are genuine. I’m not interested being snarky when asking about such matters of the spirit. 🙂
    More later, as time permits.

  129. Btw, I think Russell is considerd to be important as much for his philosophy as for his mathematical work, and although I’m not a philosophy student I don’t think it’s far off to consider him an empiricist in a broad way.

  130. Louise

    Re: children being harmed by divorce:
    “Most likely true, just as they are harmed by virtually every kind of morality, including Christian morality.”
    No. I can’t agree with that.

  131. I’m sorry, by the way, CL, for the no doubt condescending tone of “not engaged very deeply.” But I couldn’t think of a better way to say it. Any phrasing would probably be annoying in one way or another, but I think it’s true: there is a sort of secular paradigm of Christian history which isn’t very accurate, and your views seem to be very much influenced by it.

  132. Louise

    Church Lady, since you seem to think that adultery is perfectly fine under certain circumstances, I’m not even sure there is any way we can have much of a discussion. But I will persist for now. Adultery harms somebody every time. It always harms the betrayed spouse, even if there were benefits for the one who betrays – although I doubt that and I think your examples are fairly dubious.
    I’m a bit dismayed by the things you say in response to my comments, because the things I’m saying are being misrepresented, I think. I’m assuming this is accidental, but given that I don’t have much time to give a lot of thought to this discussion, the misunderstandings are very annoying.
    Now, when people say that they are on “the right side of history” I think they mean that they are in the right and those who disagree are in the wrong. Would you agree that this is the sense that most people use this phrase? I think so and that is why I was saying the question of “History as God” is concerned about moral questions. So no, not all matters are moral matters, that is true, but then I never said otherwise.
    “I don’t really know whether in the aggregate if no-fault divorce does more damage than it does good. If it does, at least the damage is done by the married couple themselves, rather than done to them by the State.”
    Not true. It is done typically by one spouse with the connivance of the State. If it were not legal to be divorced (as was once the case) then nobody would be forced to remain in a marriage (something I never advocated) but would be quite free to run away from their spouse if they so desired. The State is the entity which recognises divorce – divorce is a legal matter, whereas separation is the marital matter. As a fact, the State does use its power via the courts to kick people out of their own homes merely b/c they have had a divorce suit filed against them. I’m not saying it happens in every case, but it does happen. Now, because the State recognises a thing called divorce and therefore forces immoral situations onto committed Catholics against their beliefs, this undermines marriage.
    In the case of divorce, I think the Church will be eventually seen as being on the “right side of history” and if people would adhere to Church teaching in this respect, then as a matter of fact, children would not be harmed by family breakdown. Please leave the hard cases out of it – they are separate issues (e.g. domestic violence) and can be mitigated by separation – no divorce is required to ensure safety.
    In any case, I don’t agree that empirical evidence is required to know whether or not something is good or bad, or that it is on “the right or wrong side of history” but I am confident that such empirical evidence as can be obtained will never be able to show that the Church is wrong in its morals.

  133. Louise

    “Statistical probability has everything to do with normativity. It’s basically the definition of the term.”
    Not true:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normative

  134. Louise

    “But I’m not in favor of the state forcing people to remain married against their will, which I think is a much worse policy overall.”
    Depending on what you mean exactly by “remaining married” I might partly agree with you. At any rate, I certainly never suggested that persons should be forced by the state to keep living with their spouse. But I do think that once a couple is married they should be unable to divorce. They could be allowed legal separation, if required in extreme circumstances. What I don’t understand is how you think it’s not ok for the State to force people to remain married (at least on paper) while thinking it’s perfectly ok for the State to force people to be divorced – which it currently does.
    To make my point more clear. If an unhappy person remains in the family home, at least their spouse and children may not be as unhappy as they would be if there were a separation. The state should not be conniving with one unhappy person to make a whole bunch of other people unhappy, which it currently does.

  135. Louise

    “It’s quite true that mental illness or drug abuse and other things can wreck marriages. I don’t see how that changes the equation. Should people who are mentally ill be prevented from divorcing, or should people be prevented from divorcing their mentally ill spouse?”
    I think nobody should ever be able to divorce – which as I say is a legal matter. Separation, as I say, may be required in certain circumstances.
    I was giving an example of how marital collapse sometimes comes about. In the case of mental illness, the problem is the illness, not the marriage. That’s what changes the equation. Treat the illness and you can save the marriage and the family. I don’t think I ever mentioned drugs.
    If you cannot see how children might be advantaged by remaining in an intact family then I’d suggest you are ignoring the empirical evidence which shows that it is normal for children to fare better by all measurable outcomes when they are raised in an intact family.

  136. Louise

    http://strongermarriage.org/htm/divorce-remarriage/does-divorce-make-people-happy-findings-from-a-study-of-unhappy-marriages
    “A report, issued by the Institute for American Values suggests that on average unhappily married adults who divorced were no happier five years after the divorce than were equally unhappily married adults who stayed married when rated on any of 12 separate measures of psychological well-being. Moreover, two-thirds of unhappily married people who remained married reported that their marriages were happy five years later. Even among couples who had rated their marriages as very unhappy, 80 percent said they were happily married five years later. The data suggests that if a couple is unhappy, the chances of their being happily married five years later are 64% if they remain together but only 19% if they divorce and remarry. The report, issued July 11, 2002 seems to crumble the myth that at least divorce makes unhappily married adults happier.”

  137. Louise

    CL, you said that children are more resilient than we think etc. In the first place, I’m not sure that is true. How resilient are they and how resilient do we all think they are?
    But my answer to such a remark is that it is not the business of parents to be making their children’s lives so miserable that they need to be resilient.

  138. Church Lady

    I think nobody should ever be able to divorce
    Would it be better if we just called it an “annulment” rather than a divorce?
    You’re certainly entitled to your opinion, but I can’t possibly agree with it, it’s so extreme. There are already waiting periods to make sure people have thought this through.
    I think if that were the law, it would simply destroy marriage as an institution in this country. Very, very few people would get married if they knew they could never get out of it for any reason. Unless you passed a law that also required everyone to get married. What a lovely culture that would be!
    So are you trying to destroy marriage? Because that’s basically the result you’ll get. Even people with kids won’t get married anymore, unless they have very strong religious convictions about it. And even they may come to regret it.
    I suppose I can comfort myself with the knowledge that in no way shape or form is that ever going to happen. But I have to admit I find it very strange that you would even want things to be this way.
    As for children, I’m quite sure they fair better in intact families than divorced ones. But that’s called selection bias, in that, especially now that divorce is so easy to get, intact families are going to represent the families in which people are happily married, and divorced families are those that were unhappily married. So it really just means that kids do better when their parents are happily married. Which is no surprise at all. I’m not sure that tells us anything about the value of staying together in any absolute sense. If unhappy couples stay together, it can be even worse for the kids than splitting up. As I’ve said, I know that from personal experience.

  139. Louise

    “So are you trying to destroy marriage? Because that’s basically the result you’ll get. Even people with kids won’t get married anymore, unless they have very strong religious convictions about it. And even they may come to regret it.”
    Sure, blame me. Look, we never had divorce prior to about 150 years ago, at least once the Church had got rid of it. I would say that the state could still help things out with offering incentives to marry. Obviously since people have been permitted to divorce it would be hard to reverse the trend. But I would settle for the eradication of “no-fault.”
    “Very, very few people would get married if they knew they could never get out of it for any reason. Unless you passed a law that also required everyone to get married. What a lovely culture that would be!”
    Well I never advocated compulsory marriage. So…what the???
    “I suppose I can comfort myself with the knowledge that in no way shape or form is that ever going to happen. But I have to admit I find it very strange that you would even want things to be this way.”
    We’ll see. Don’t be too sure how things will turn out. Anything could happen in the next 50 years and it would not at all surprise me if younger generations decide they’ve had enough of the nonsense and lead the way to a restoration of marriage.
    “But I have to admit I find it very strange that you would even want things to be this way.”
    You can’t see why I would want people to remain in their marriages (excepting severe situations)? Okay. :/

  140. Louise

    Again, from what I posted earlier:
    “A report, issued by the Institute for American Values suggests that on average unhappily married adults who divorced were no happier five years after the divorce than were equally unhappily married adults who stayed married when rated on any of 12 separate measures of psychological well-being.”
    If what you say is true that children simply do better when their parents are happy then going by this bit of empiricism, you should want divorce to occur less.

  141. Louise

    Your own family situation is merely anecdotal for the purposes of this discussion. You will not admit my anecdotes, therefore I do not admit yours.

  142. Severe restrictions on things like divorce could only work in a society where there’s something approaching a consensus. So no need to worry about it happening here anytime soon.

  143. Church Lady

    I’m not sure why I’m the one providing links when you are the one who insists on empiricism, CL.
    Because it is the responsibility of those making an argument to provide the evidence that supports it. And the studies you cite don’t seem to support your argument.
    Take for example your first study:
    For divorced and intact groups combined, the relationships among family members appeared to be more potent influences on child behavior than was marital status. The negative effects of divorce were greatly mitigated when positive relationships with both parents were maintained.
    So it’s not divorce that makes the difference, but the way the divorced parents stay involved with their kids.
    Your second study does show decreased well-being for children of divorced, but it compares them to intact families overall, rather than to unhappy families that are forced to remain together. So it’s an apple and oranges comparison.
    Your fourth study also does not support your contention:
    For boys, the apparent effect of separation or divorce on behavior problems and achievement at the later time point was sharply reduced by considering behavior problems, achievement levels, and family difficulties that were present at the earlier time point, before any of the families had broken up. For girls, the reduction in the apparent effect of divorce occurred to a lesser but still noticeable extent once preexisting conditions were considered.
    In other words, the harm to the children was largely done by the conditions that existed during the marriage, and are mitigated when addressed post-divorce.
    Your last study also concludes that it’s the quality of parenting post-divorce that determines the outcome for the child, not the mere fact of divorce.
    What all these studies seem to show is that good parenting is necessary for kids to overcome divorce. Which only makes sense. But it also makes sense that good parenting is necessary within an intact family as well. As with most things in childhood, it’s good parenting that matters. And you can’t really legislate that, beyond the bare minimums of abuse and neglect.
    The other weakness in your arguments, besides the lack of evidence to support them, is that you advocate that no one can get divorced, but no one is forced to live with their spouse either. In that event, how does it even matter to kids, if one parent is living apart? That’s basically the same as divorce, even if the legal technicality doesn’t occur. You still have children living in a non-intact family. So even if your arguments are true, it wouldn’t change anything for children.
    The only thing that might, is if married spouses were required to live together, no matter what. And that probably sounds insane even to you.
    My general conclusion from this is that the better answer is not a legal one, but a cultural one, of encouraging better parenting, and more commitment to the marriage relationship. I’m not really concerned about how that’s done. If strong traditional religious values do that, fine with me. If secular values to that, fine also. I think people need to be free to do it however they want, as long as they get there. If they fail, it’s best if they continue as best they can to at least be good parents who help their kids work through divorce.

  144. Church Lady

    Your own family situation is merely anecdotal for the purposes of this discussion. You will not admit my anecdotes, therefore I do not admit yours.
    Well, I’m just trying to be friendly and open with you on a personal level. I don’t expect my personal life to mean much in the greater scheme of things, but it does show that it’s certainly not some universal truth that divorce is evil and harmful to children. I know many other children of divorce who have similar experiences. I’m surprised that you seem so unaware that in abusive families, divorce is often a great blessing. And that abuse is hardly a rare event.

  145. Church Lady

    If what you say is true that children simply do better when their parents are happy then going by this bit of empiricism, you should want divorce to occur less.
    I do want divorce to happen less often. I also want people to be happy. I want children to be well-parented in stable homes by loving, happy parents. But no law is going to make any of that come about. I think it’s a mistake for people to think that their ordinary unhappiness is going to go away if they simply change their circumstance. I’ve said before that I think people should stick it out in their marriages as best they can, especially if children are involved. Get counseling, get religion, do whatever it takes. But don’t make the State into some super-Daddy who forces people to stay together. As the hot-dog vendor said to the Dalai Lama, change comes from within. I wish people took that more seriously.

  146. Church Lady

    Sure, blame me.
    I’m not going to blame you for something that’s never going to happen. I’m just making the point that you seem not to have thought through the repercussions of what you’re advocating. Forbidding divorce except in the most extreme circumstances would, at least in our modern world, lead to the wholesale abandonment of the institution of marriage except in rather rare cases. I don’t think that’s what you really want, of course, so maybe you should reconsider?
    Look, we never had divorce prior to about 150 years ago, at least once the Church had got rid of it.
    It was rare, but it happened. The Church has always been rather liberal in its use of annulments, and increasingly so. Obviously it’s a cultural thing, and the culture has changed tremendously. 150 years ago women couldn’t even vote. They couldn’t leave abusive marriages. They couldn’t even get protection from the police for abusive husbands. The abuses of that era are so extreme by modern standards its no wonder that we now have no-fault divorce.
    Economics plays a big role in this also, including especially the role of working women, and the general instability of jobs altogether. Things were very different when most everyone worked on small farms. They were different when most everyone was a serf. You can’t go back to those kinds of marriage customs when the world is a very different place. That genie is out of the bottle.
    I would say that the state could still help things out with offering incentives to marry.
    They already do. They could offer more, certainly. I think the bigger problems is the difficulty in raising children, especially in a modern economy where two parents often have to work to get by. The help for parents could be a lot more. In fact, I think the strain of raising kids and working outside the home is a big factor in the divorce rate where it ends up hurting the most.
    Obviously since people have been permitted to divorce it would be hard to reverse the trend. But I would settle for the eradication of “no-fault.”
    Those trends long preceded “no fault” divorce, and unless those trends in economics and culture change, “no-fault” is here to stay. I think it’s better to concentrate on both cultural and economic help for parents with children, if that’s the big concern.
    Well I never advocated compulsory marriage. So…what the???
    I’m just pointing out that’s the only way your proposal wouldn’t result in the abandonment of marriage altogether by the culture. Since you don’t want compulsory marriage, I think you need to abandon the goal of no divorce for anyone but the extremes.
    We’ll see. Don’t be too sure how things will turn out. Anything could happen in the next 50 years and it would not at all surprise me if younger generations decide they’ve had enough of the nonsense and lead the way to a restoration of marriage.
    I can certainly see people wanting to have more traditional, committed marriages, and I’d support and encourage that. But I think there’s a snowball’s chance in hell that this will be accomplished by making divorce nearly impossible. And thank God. What a terrible idea, honestly.
    “But I have to admit I find it very strange that you would even want things to be this way.”
    You can’t see why I would want people to remain in their marriages (excepting severe situations)? Okay. :/
    Not only that, I can’t see how you think this will either benefit children, or lead to a restoration of marriage. It would only lead most people to never get married at all, but just live together even when children come. And those who do get married, who want out, will just live apart, and the family will be broken anyway. So it seems like the worst of all possible worlds. I think your intentions may be good, but that’s what paves the road to hell.

  147. “As the hot-dog vendor said…”
    That’s funny. I imagine we can all agree that change ultimately does have to come from within. But I think Louise is right that no-fault divorce, and easy divorce in general, has increased the divorce rate, and encouraged the breakup of marriages where the differences could have been worked out.

  148. original slimming pills

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  149. grumpz in Hungarz

    DO THEY BRING US CLOSER TO REALITY?

  150. I guess it depends on how slim the real us is.

  151. grumpz in Hungarz

    well we are getting closer to it if lots of other Western contemporaries think so

  152. On Ivan Karamazov’s question I once had a liberal agnostic tell me that she probably wouldn’t have a problem with it theoretically, but that she, personally, would be unable to do the actual deed. When I pressed her and asked, “What if it were your child?” she really couldn’t answer.

  153. Chilling. I think I prefer Church Lady’s dismissal, though I guess your friend’s honesty is…not exactly admirable but…honest.
    Yeah, grumpz, that’s pretty definitive.

  154. Louise

    But don’t make the State into some super-Daddy who forces people to stay together.
    This is a gross misrepresentation of my actual argument as are the recurring remarks about domestic violence/abuse, which situations I have already addressed, more than once.
    I understand that you are trying to be friendly, or personable, in sharing part of your story but you cannot expect me to accept your anecdotal evidence, as evidence, if you don’t accept mine. And you have made a lot of assertions which you have not backed up either with the empirical evidence you deem necessary. It’s not me that thinks empirical evidence is the only way to know things with certainty.

  155. Louise

    On Ivan Karamazov’s question, the principle for healthy human beings is “you cannot do evil to bring about good.”
    That, and the fact that I am capable of all kinds of evil but I know I could never torture a child to death.
    So incredibly alarming that others could think differently!

  156. Louise

    “well we are getting closer to it if lots of other Western contemporaries think so”
    😀

  157. Louise

    “I imagine we can all agree that change ultimately does have to come from within. But I think Louise is right that no-fault divorce, and easy divorce in general, has increased the divorce rate, and encouraged the breakup of marriages where the differences could have been worked out.”
    Exactly.
    And there are even minor changes the state could make to divorce law to aid better outcomes.

  158. Church Lady

    “But don’t make the State into some super-Daddy who forces people to stay together.”
    This is a gross misrepresentation of my actual argument as are the recurring remarks about domestic violence/abuse, which situations I have already addressed, more than once.

    I don’t think this is a misrepresentation at all of your proposal. I’ve acknowledged numerous times that you offer an out for domestic violence of abuse, but for everyone else, it really is the State acting as Super-Daddy saying no, you can’t divorce for any other reason. Which I guess means that a couple who wants to get out of their marriage could fake domestic abuse, or make false accusations against one another, but that seems like an awful outcome also.
    I also notice you have failed to address any of my other criticisms. I assume because you can’t. It doesn’t seem to me that you are arguing in good faith.
    you have made a lot of assertions which you have not backed up either with the empirical evidence you deem necessary.
    Which ones?

  159. Church Lady

    And there are even minor changes the state could make to divorce law to aid better outcomes.
    I’d like to know what these are.

  160. Church Lady

    If we are to take the Karamazov question seriously, we have to ask what the details are. What’s the benefit to humanity? Is it a slice of pizza and a coke for everyone? Doesn’t sound like a good deal. Is it saving the lives of ten thousand other children who would otherwise be tortured? Well, that does sound like a good deal. But then, you have to ask yourself who is going to be torturing those ten thousand children? God? And why can’t they be saved except by torturing this one child? It seems like anyone who would offer that deal must be an utter sociopath, so why would we trust them at all?
    In other words, it’s virtually impossible for me to imagine a real-life situation in which this kind of offer could be made, in which we could also trust it.
    But if we were to get over that hump somehow, I’d have to say that yes, I would probably go torture that child to save ten thousand others. And then I’d probably kill myself.

  161. grumpz in Hungarz

    and who would torturing that kid bring closer to ‘reality’? Whose reality? what reality?

  162. Church Lady

    and who would torturing that kid bring closer to ‘reality’? Whose reality? what reality?
    Well, first it would have to be a real situation. Is it?
    The simplest way to get closer to reality is to reject unreal things. Unless you can demonstrate that it’s a real situation, only by rejecting it can you get closer to reality. Wasting time on unreal things only gets you further away from reality.

  163. “…first it would have to be a real situation…”
    Really, CL, this is kind of obtuse. I think the history of the modern world has shown that pragmatism is not necessarily pragmatic in the long run.
    Your comments are welcome, and the discussion is mostly interesting. But don’t assume that when people don’t respond to your arguments they have been defeated. Most people don’t have either the time or inclination that you do to engage in internet debates.

  164. grumpz in Hungarz

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  165. Louise

    How real is Hungarz? I can’t believe any place with such weird spelling is real. 🙂

  166. Louise

    “But if we were to get over that hump somehow, I’d have to say that yes, I would probably go torture that child to save ten thousand others. And then I’d probably kill myself.”
    I don’t think it’s my responsibility to make the whole world happy. I do think it’s my responsibility not to torture a child to death.

  167. Louise

    I think most people make a vow when they marry along the lines of “I promise to be faithful to you for better or for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health” and I don’t see that the state has any business in cancelling those promises, which it does when it recognises divorce in law. I have said repeatedly that people can leave their spouse any time for any lame-ass reason whatever – that has nothing to do with divorce as law.
    But you know, if you don’t care that people should keep their promises and that the state should have the power to cancel those vows, then whatevs.

  168. Louise

    Mac can you possibly delete my last comment? I’m going to have to write my sentence properly!
    It should read: “…if you don’t care that people should keep their promises OR that the state HAS the power to cancel those vows when it should not…”

  169. Louise

    Minor changes to divorce law could include a longer time of marital separation before one can file. That would be a move in the right direction.
    How about not rewarding the separating spouse with primary custody of the children? Honestly, it doesn’t take a lot of imagination.

  170. Louise

    I can answer all your objections, Church Lady, but am not very inclined to do so, when I have demonstrated that you are misrepresenting my views. Can’t be bothered with that.

  171. Comment deleted as requested.

  172. Church Lady

    Louise,
    I haven’t at all misrepresented your views. I’ve acknowledged many times that you would allow divorce in cases of abuse. That doesn’t save your proposal from the rest of my criticisms. Again, I think you are arguing in bad faith, which is why you won’t answer those criticisms.

  173. Church Lady

    How about not rewarding the separating spouse with primary custody of the children? Honestly, it doesn’t take a lot of imagination.
    Children are not a reward, they are human beings to whom we owe a responsibility. Courts determine custody on the basis the best interests of the child, not some notion of which parent is to blame, or which parent initiates divorce proceedings. That’s a particularly perverse idea if your primary interest is the best interests of the child. Which I see they are not.

  174. Church Lady

    I think most people make a vow when they marry along the lines of “I promise to be faithful to you for better or for worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and in health” and I don’t see that the state has any business in cancelling those promises, which it does when it recognises divorce in law.
    Those sorts of promises are not legally enforcable. Marriage law is a form of contract law, and their are many things one might say or sign on to in a contract that are not legally enforceable. Marriage contracts have nothing to do with whatever vows are made at the marriage ceremony. If it is a religious ceremony, one could certainly suggest that God hears and will enforce those vows, so that is who you should appeal to for justice if someone violates them. But the actual legal liabilities and responsibilities of the marriage contract are the same for everyone, and they do not include lifelong, never-ending commitment. The State cannot enforce a religious commitment, any more than it could require a priest to be celibate, or a monk to never leave their order.

  175. Church Lady

    Really, CL, this is kind of obtuse. I think the history of the modern world has shown that pragmatism is not necessarily pragmatic in the long run.
    We aren’t talking pragmatism here, we are talking realism. These scenarios aren’t even remotely realistic, so there are no pragmatic solutions to the dilemma they pose. That’s basically my point.
    In the long run we are all dead, as Keynes noted, so I don’t think any solutions are terribly meaningful to discuss in the long term. I we speak of a metaphysical reality beyond death, that too is outside the bounds of these kinds of fanciful scenarios. So there isn’t really much meaning to be gleaned from them, since it all depends on the theoretical assumptions brought to the table. It’s more a way of entrapping people into saying something that can then be used against them in the real world. Ivan Karamazov was diabolical in that sense. As in the Grand Inquisitor story.

  176. Church Lady

    As for presuming to have won, I only mean that in the limited sense of the exchange with Louise, not in the larger sense of the debate altogether. Louise is not a good representative of traditional views on divorce, I think, and a better advocate might make better arguments, and make them in good faith, and who knows, they might even overcome my own. So it’s a very minor and somewhat pointless victory if that.

  177. Church Lady

    As for longer waiting periods, that might be useful. I’m not sure what they are, six months, a year? Maybe it varies from state to state. I suppose it would be useful to see if longer waiting periods actually reduce divorce rates. If they do, it’s something well worth considering.

  178. “The simplest way to get closer to reality is to reject unreal things. Unless you can demonstrate that it’s a real situation, only by rejecting it can you get closer to reality. Wasting time on unreal things only gets you further away from reality.”
    Huh?
    “We aren’t talking pragmatism here, we are talking realism. These scenarios aren’t even remotely realistic, so there are no pragmatic solutions to the dilemma they pose. That’s basically my point.”
    Oh. Well, then you don’t understand the nature of a thought experiment?
    Ok, then let’s use what I believe is an example from Orwell, and one perhaps more “realistic.” Would it ever be right to kick a small child as hard as you could in the stomach?

  179. Church Lady

    Oh. Well, then you don’t understand the nature of a thought experiment?
    Ok, then let’s use what I believe is an example from Orwell, and one perhaps more “realistic.” Would it ever be right to kick a small child as hard as you could in the stomach?

    Some thought experiments are meaningful, others not so much. Depends on its relationship to reality. I’m all for metaphor and poetry and speculation when it’s on the up and up, and not trying to promote some other kind of agenda. Which is what I feel is going on here with these “thought experiments”.
    I don’t really see what they are trying to achieve that has any value, in other words. Other than as amusement, or righteous moralizing about meaningless things. But some people are really addicted to righteous moralizing about meaningless things, I suppose.
    As for your small child, sure, there are certainly some circumstances where kicking that small child could be the right thing to do. Such as, the small child being possessed by a devil, and the only way to exorcize them would be to kick them in the stomach as hard as you can.
    It’s kind of like doctors and surgery. If asked you is it ever okay to stab a child with a knife, wouldn’t you agree that if the knife was a scalpel wielded by a surgeon trying to save that child’s life, it would definitely be justified? In fact, that kind of thing happens all the time. So circumstances and motives do matter.

  180. Church Lady

    I don’t think it’s my responsibility to make the whole world happy.
    Then please explain why you think it’s your business to try to reduce the divorce rate and improve the lives of children?

  181. Louise

    It is quite unkind to assume I am arguing in bad faith. I can see now that none of my arguments are having any effect and since my time is limited and since I may simply be incompetent, I’m not willing to devote a lot of time to this venture. Because I had limited time, I had chosen to try and focus on just one issue (divorce). This one issue is a highly emotive one, which already makes it hard to discuss sensibly.
    I must say that you have asked a lot of questions without waiting to see if anyone had the time to reply and it takes a lot of time to answer such questions. They are not simple to answer.
    “Those sorts of promises are not legally enforcable. Marriage law is a form of contract law, and their are many things one might say or sign on to in a contract that are not legally enforceable.”
    I never said the promises should be legally enforceable, what I said was that the state should not have the right to override those promises, and it does do so, to the point of even throwing people out of their homes. Tell me, do you think it’s ok for the state to throw people out of their homes b/c their spouse wants a divorce? If the state did not have divorce on its books, that would not stop people from leaving their spouse and living with someone else, but it would probably have a nett effect of discouraging people from doing so.
    And as for contracts, I’m pretty sure there is no other kind of contract that is so easy to get out of as marriage.
    A while back you made this remark, when I brought up the Ten Commandments.
    “There are people of other religions living happy lives as well. And moral, religious, and spiritual lives.”
    I never said they did not. That wasn’t my point.
    “Ahimsa, the principle of “do no harm to others” has been a major teaching and practice in Buddhism and Hinduism for much longer than it was in Christianity.”
    I never said other religions do not have some commonality with Christianity.
    “It’s not even mentioned in the Ten Commandments.”
    I never said it was. Although it is certainly taught in the Gospels and is contained in the catechism as a principal, if not explicitly stated.

  182. Church Lady

    In the real of realism, here’s a real life situation that came up in Saddam’s Iraq:
    Saddam’s military guard was marching by a school, and one of the kids threw an eraser out the window, stiking one of the solders in the head. The parade stopped, and the whole school was lined up outside. The commander told the kids and teachers and administators that three kids would be selected, and killed in front of them. Unless everyone clapped and cheered while they killed the children, three more would be selected and killed. And they would repeat that until everyone clapped and cheered.
    So, what would you do under those circumstances? Would you clap and cheer while those three children were being murdered? And if you did, would that mean you approve of murdering little children?

  183. Church Lady

    that should be “realm of realism”

  184. Church Lady

    It is quite unkind to assume I am arguing in bad faith.
    Arguing in bad faith means never acknowledging when someone else makes good arguments against your own, and never addressing those good points, but just moving on to something else. I’ve acknowledged many of your good arguments and points when they make sense to me, and I’ve addressed those I don’t think make sense. I don’t find that reciprocated by you. No big deal, but it does not reflect well upon your overall approach, I think.
    I must say that you have asked a lot of questions without waiting to see if anyone had the time to reply and it takes a lot of time to answer such questions. They are not simple to answer.
    Well, I apologize for my impatience. And I agree, they are not simple to answer. Which is why I think simplistic solutions won’t work.
    I never said the promises should be legally enforceable, what I said was that the state should not have the right to override those promises, and it does do so, to the point of even throwing people out of their homes.
    This makes no sense whatsoever. If the promise is not legally enforceable, it carries no weight in legal proceedings, such as the distribution of community property in a divorce. The State has no choice but to only take into account legally enforceable promises in the marriage contract itself. If you are saying that community property law should not be able to override those promises, you are saying that those promises are legally enforceable. There’s no in-between.
    It’s important to realize that when you marry someone in most states, your property is jointly held, and this means you don’t have any kind of absolute right to use it as you wish, either in the marriage or in a legal separation or after a divorce. That includes your own house. If that bothers you, don’t get married. If you do get married, try really hard to make the marriage work out, or face the division of your property in a divorce. I think everyone knows this by now. It’s part of the cost of getting married. Property rights are a big deal in this country, and both spouses have property rights that need to be settled in a divorce. Neither party has the right to get exactly what they want, or to go on living in community property when the other won’t agree to that in recompense for other assets.
    The same is true of any form of legal partnership, I might add. Dividing assets in a business partnership that is being dissolved is tricky, and usually unsatisfying.
    Tell me, do you think it’s ok for the state to throw people out of their homes b/c their spouse wants a divorce?
    If the home is jointly owned by both parties, then yes, the State has no choice in the matter. The same would be the case in any sort of business situation where two parties owned a property jointly, unless there was a legally enforceable contract stipulating otherwise. Pre-nups can certainly cover that for pre-existing property.
    One thing I’ll say for traditional marriage practices is that, because marriage was mostly about property in the first place, there was a lot of attention given to these matters before a marriage was arranged between two families. In the age of romantic marriage that we live in, couples often idealistically get together thinking such matters don’t matter, because they are in love. This often results in some big problems after the honeymoon is over.
    If the state did not have divorce on its books, that would not stop people from leaving their spouse and living with someone else, but it would probably have a nett effect of discouraging people from doing so.
    Maybe in the days of serfdom it might, but in the modern age it would merely stop people from getting married at all. Either something like civil unions would become extremely popular, or people wouldn’t get married except for the most idealistic. And they would often come to regret it. Also, you can’t retroactively impose such restrictions on people who got married when the divorce laws were different. Well, unless you want a revolution on your hands.
    In some states, there’s such a thing as Covenant Marriage, which is not as extreme as your proposal, but does make it much more difficult to get divorced. I think that’s a good option for people who don’t believe in divorce. I don’t know how popular it’s become, but at least it’s out there. Of course, the kind of people who do that are probably the kind of people who wouldn’t be so likely to divorce even under the no-fault system, so I’m not sure it changes much.
    And as for contracts, I’m pretty sure there is no other kind of contract that is so easy to get out of as marriage.
    That is probably true, except for your standard at-will employment defacto contract. But it’s still not altogether easy, as division of property , income, and child custody is still very, very difficult in many cases. It’s a contract that requires that both parties really be committed to it. But it also recognizes that people simply cannot be compelled to stay together without mutual consent. It is that consent that constitutes the real force of the marriage, and when that is gone, so is the marriage. I’m not sure what you are advocating, but it sounds like you think marriage should not be determined by mutual consent, but by something else. What?
    A while back you made this remark, when I brought up the Ten Commandments.
    “There are people of other religions living happy lives as well. And moral, religious, and spiritual lives.”
    I never said they did not. That wasn’t my point.

    I may recall this incorrectly, but I thought I was responding to someone else. In any case, my point was simply that I don’t see living by the Ten Commandments or the Catholic Catechism per se as a requirement for a happy life. It’s not the standard by which to judge all, in other words, and I cited the examples of people of other religions to buttress the point.
    I never said other religions do not have some commonality with Christianity.
    My point was that commonality with Christianity is not an important factor in the lives of people of other religions.
    “It’s not even mentioned in the Ten Commandments.”
    I never said it was. Although it is certainly taught in the Gospels and is contained in the catechism as a principal, if not explicitly stated.

    The Ten Commandments are part of Jewish Law, whereas the Gospels and catechism are not. My point is that even from a Christian perspective, the Ten Commandments are incomplete. Even Jesus, a Jew, created an eleventh commandment, which he said was more important than the original ten.
    And likewise, from other religious perspectives, even Christian teachings are incomplete. So this depends entirely on what moral and religious viewpoint one has. Judging Jews by Jewish morality, and Christians by Christian morality, and Catholics by Catholic morality, and people of other religions by their own morality, is fair enough. But expecting people to acknowledge the infallibility of your own religion and its moral universe is really pretty unsound, especially when talking to someone who isn’t of your particular faith.

  185. The notion of “real” that you’re working with is rather narrow, Church Lady. Ideas are real and they have consequences. That’s part of what I meant about pragmatism not always being pragmatic. And realism of the sort you apparently mean is not always realistic.

  186. Re marriage and divorce, I happened to run across this piece earlier today, which references some studies claiming to show that no-fault divorce really has had an effect, and has hurt the poor more than the affluent. Which might be said of the whole sexual revolution.
    I’m not particularly interested in arguing the details of marriage policy, but it seems pretty certain to me that making divorce easier makes it more frequent, and that people are less likely to stick out situations that are less than perfect but far from intolerable than they used to be. But that’s also of a piece with the general trend toward self-indulgence of the past 50 years or so.

  187. Louise

    BTW, thanks for fixing my errors, Maclin 🙂

  188. Church Lady

    The notion of “real” that you’re working with is rather narrow, Church Lady. Ideas are real and they have consequences. That’s part of what I meant about pragmatism not always being pragmatic. And realism of the sort you apparently mean is not always realistic.
    I don’t know what your notion of “real” is, but I would agree that ideas are real, and have consequences. Ideas that have little relation to human life can have particularly bad consequences if people hold to them dearly and fight to establish their hold on human society.
    I would suggest that there are many levels of reality, and not just physical ones, but each of them is only real to the degree that it actually describes that level of reality, and doesn’t confuse them.
    If I have a dream of winning the lottery, it’s certainly true that the dream was real – I really did dream that I won the lottery – but it’s not real that I actually won the lottery in waking life, and if I quit my job and go on an expensive vacation to celebrate my winnings, I am living in an unreal world.
    On the other hand, if I take that dream and try to understand it on a psychological or even spiritual level, I might glean something important from it. And the same goes for most ideas. It’s a very dangerous thing to fall under the spell of an idea, and imagine that its attractiveness makes it real and true. Idealism has its place, but realism rules.

  189. Church Lady

    Mac,
    Yes, I think that’s generally true – no fault divorce has hurt the poor more than the rich. The elites have probably benefited from it overall. In fact, I think thats generally true of most aspects of not just the sexual revolution, but the whole trend towards freedom of choice.
    The problem with freedom of choice is that people are free to make bad choices also. And people who are raised badly, or who just aren’t very smart, or who lack a grounded sense of reality, will tend to make a lot of bad choices, and not even realize what they did wrong. Those who are smart and grounded and raised well, however, will tend to make good choices, or at the very least learn from their bad choices.
    And that’s a very significant part of the inequality problem in our country today. We have something of a hereditary/cultural meritocratic sifting out process going on that separates the smart from the dumb without much compassion or mercy. And because there are so many freedoms and so many choices to make, the outcome range is multiplied to the point where there really are two classes of people, and it’s not really a strictly economic divide as it is one of intelligence and culture.
    It’s hard to tell people that they should be more disciplined in their choices. Interestingly, this is not actually a liberal/conservative divide. Smart and well-bred liberals limit their choices in ways that leverage success just as smart and well-bred conservatives do. In different ways, perhaps, but there’s more than one avenue to success in this world.
    But there’s a population out there that has the worst of those worlds. There are plenty of conservatives and liberals who make bad choices, and who either stay poor or fall into poverty as a consequence. Since the basic mantra of our times is about freedom and choice, on both liberal and conservative sides of the fence, this isn’t likely to change.
    So I would disagree with you somewhat about the notion that our culture has moved towards self-indulgence rather than self-discipline. The successful side of our culture has become increasingly disciplined and even somewhat puritanical about self-indulgence. It’s the people who don’t know how to remain disciplined while enjoying the pleasures of life that get screwed. Often literally.
    The real challenge of the times, I think, is how to help stupid people make better choices. I hope that doesn’t sound unkind, but I think it’s true. When it comes to divorce, for example, even liberal elites have learned that it’s a painful and tragic thing to go through, and that it’s best to avoid it, and that a good, strong, happy marriage is a huge benefit to oneself and one’s children. Charles Murray had a lot to say about that. They just don’t tend to be outspoken about that, or preach it to the poor.
    We are definitely in a cultural moment, in which people are going to have to learn how to cope with their newfound freedoms and enjoyments. Just because we have the freedom to do many things, doesn’t mean we should. Those who are learning those lessons are gaining a lot from it, and those who don’t, are losing. That’s why I say this is largely a cultural matter. Beyond the bare minimums, the State can’t do much to force people to make good choices. But the culture can promote certain choices and denigrate others.

  190. Grumpz in Hungarz

    Over the course of manz lengthy comments CL has never defined what he means by progressing toward reality. Slowlz but surely however he came out as a utilitarian. He thinks progressing toward realitz is progressing toward the greatest happiness of the greatest number. One simple problem here is that, whilst professing empiricism, he has no empirical evidence at all that more people are happy now than in the past. A second problem is that whilst evidently aspiring to sound like a moral person, he can not render any empirical account of what makes a moral norm a moral norm.

  191. Church Lady

    Over the course of manz lengthy comments CL has never defined what he means by progressing toward reality.
    We don’t define reality. Reality defines us. Woe unto him who think he can define reality.
    Progress towards reality therefore involves not trying to shoehorn reality into our definitions of it, but letting it show us how undefinable it really is.
    Slowlz but surely however he came out as a utilitarian.
    In some ways, sure. In others, not. Trying to define people with one word usually misses most of what they are about. But maybe that’s the whole idea?
    He thinks progressing toward realitz is progressing toward the greatest happiness of the greatest number.
    I never said anything even remotely like that. Others think they can define “progressivism” that way, but that’s not my viewpoint. Although living in reality is probably the only way to actually be genuinely happy, it’s not really a goal, since reality is already here. Surrendering to whatever reality is, is the way to “progress” in my view. So you can progress towards reality, and you can also just surrender to it. Pay now or pay later. It amounts to the same thing in the end.
    One simple problem here is that, whilst professing empiricism, he has no empirical evidence at all that more people are happy now than in the past.
    I never said they were, but now that you mention it, there’s certainly been a demonstrable decrease in really terrible diseases, hunger, poverty, short-life spans, even war, and so on in those parts of the world which have most obviously embraced liberal modernism. And we see the opposite in many of the places that have rejected it. These are signs of progress towards reality at least on the mundane levels. Of course, happiness is more than bread alone – though without bread, it’s virtually impossible.
    Comparing past and present happiness across cultures is quite difficult to do, but as a thought experiment, tell me where you would rather have been born than in the modern west.
    A second problem is that whilst evidently aspiring to sound like a moral person, he can not render any empirical account of what makes a moral norm a moral norm.
    My own view on the subject is that kindness, generosity of spirit, hospitality, and compassion towards others are moral norms in many cultures simply because love is the very nature of reality, and these are expressions of love. This can be affirmed by higher forms of empiricism if you are willing to submit yourself to the requirements of that sort of investigation of reality.
    But much of what passes for moral normality throughout human history is a more dreary and tiresome game of advancing one’s own interests, and those of one’s own tribe, and creating moral value systems which do that. Much of that is about ignoring that simple, rather easily observable truth that reality is about love. Instead, people tend to think instead that it’s about seeking some goal for oneself and one’s compatriots, often at the expense of others – even religious goals like the salvation of one’s soul. Or playing onesupmanship games of moral righteousness to make oneself feel superior. That’s a regression away from reality, not progress towards it. Best to drop all that, and surrender to what is real right now, at all levels.
    But if you prefer, you can certainly keep up with the digs. I’m sure eventually you will strike something, maybe even a nerve. But don’t expect any happiness for yourself as a result. That’s not how it’s found. Don’t you know that by now?

  192. “Such as, the small child being possessed by a devil, and the only way to exorcize them would be to kick them in the stomach as hard as you can.”
    Thing is, the child would almost certainly be killed, thus negating any benefit of the exorcism.
    Orwell’s point, of course, is that there is NO good reason to ever kick a child in the stomach like that. And if Orwell’s right, then so is Ivan K. THAT’S the value of a thought experiment.

  193. Louise

    “If the home is jointly owned by both parties, then yes, the State has no choice in the matter.”
    Of course it has a choice in the matter. It could just as easily stipulate that the person who wants to break up the family should either go without his/her share, entirely (which is what I would like) or to be the one who must leave the marital home. Both of these options would be completely fair, given how miserable the abandoned spouse and children will be. The loss of a house would be nothing, in comparison.
    Re: the state enforcing a promise. No, I do not think the state is enforcing a promise if it will not grant a divorce, for the simple reason that a person is still free to leave their spouse and shack up with someone else.
    Just because you are impatient for answers to the many questions and points you have raised and which I do think are worth examining, does not mean I am arguing in bad faith, if I do not reply. I simply do not have the time. I will say that I do think many of the things you write in reply are valid points which I don’t necessarily agree with but which would require a lot of time to answer. That does not make them unanswerable.
    “Children are not a reward, they are human beings to whom we owe a responsibility. Courts determine custody on the basis the best interests of the child, not some notion of which parent is to blame”
    No, but the court rewards the immoral parent with custody all the same. In most cases either parent can adequately look after the child physically (though often not emotionally – which is a typical result of divorce in my observation) but I would say that it is gross neglect of the child to place him/her in the primary care of the immoral parent, who is not mature enough to place their child’s needs ahead of whatever the hell they want.
    “Then please explain why you think it’s your business to try to reduce the divorce rate and improve the lives of children?”
    Do I? First of all, I don’t think it’s my responsibility for making other people happy, but that doesn’t mean I can’t desire other people – especially children – to be happy. I don’t consider it to be my responsibility to make the state do the right thing. And what am I doing? Having an argument with you on the internet. I’m not forcing the state to force people to remain living with the people they chose in the first place, so that their own children can be happy and not sad.
    I might desire a lower divorce rate etc, but I certainly wouldn’t torture a child to death to achieve it. shudder

  194. Louise

    I do have the time to observe that I agree that the cultural side of things is more important than the legal or political side of things, when it comes to norms and morals etc. But I observe that bad laws tend to have a bad influence on the culture.

  195. Louise

    “My own view on the subject is that kindness, generosity of spirit, hospitality, and compassion towards others are moral norms in many cultures simply because love is the very nature of reality, and these are expressions of love.”
    Something we don’t see in the divorce courts. I’m trying to wrap my head around the idea of kindness in the act of destroying one’s own marriage, and in thereby making one’s own spouse and children miserable. Nor can I see any kindness in excusing people from such things.

  196. Sorry, I’m too busy to participate, but just one note to CL about Grumpz’s remarks: I think her description of your basic view as utilitarianism is reasonable based on what you’ve said here. We don’t know whether we’re making progress toward reality unless we can recognize reality when we see it, and for the most part what you’ve seemed to be aiming toward is a more or less utilitarian goal.

  197. Grumpz in Hungarz

    its absurd to move from saying we are making progress (CLs original contention) whilst saying progress is moving toward realitz and then to move to agnosticism about our knowledge of realitz.

  198. Church Lady

    Well, no Grumpz, you don’t have to have full intellectual knowledge of reality to move towards it. Even blind natural selection will aid you. And we have an intuitive sense of reality that’s true, simply because we are real also.
    Science, after all, doesn’t start with full knowledge of reality. Quite the opposite, it starts in ignorance. It slowly uncovers reality, through speculation, experiment and analysis, repeated endlessly. It doesn’t know what the final answers will be, but it does progress towards them.
    Most of life is like that.

  199. Church Lady

    Mac, I don’t think you or grumpz are using the word “utilitarian” properly. That’s a philosophical attitude. When I say that empiricism is based on what works, I’m simply pointing to the results of experiments that reveal how the universe actually operates.
    For example, theories of quantum mechanics get confirmed not just in the lab, but when we built electronic devices using those theories, and those devices work. That’s not utilitarianism, that’s empiricism. If they don’t work, we go back to the drawing board.
    Utilitarianism is a an approach that says, maybe we don’t know why this works, but we’ll just go for it because it does seem to work for now. Empiricism is trying to get at the root of why things work, and what that can tell us about how the world and even the universe operates, and how we can then apply those core insights to make other things work also.
    So while I think utilitarianism and pragmatism do have a place in life – we don’t have the time to test everything we do in some disciplined manner, or study up on absolutely everything – what I’m referring to is empiricism as a way to go deeper and wider than mere utilitarianism and pragmatism can ever reach on their own. But both do share the common virtue of being based on actual observation of the world, rather than imposing a theory upon that just seems right in our minds, but may not work in life.
    You could say that pragmatism is a primitive form of empiricism, and utilitarianism is a philosophical attitude based in pragmatism, and thus by extension, a primitive, philosphical form of empiricism as well. But empiricism isn’t limited to these.

  200. Church Lady

    Something we don’t see in the divorce courts. I’m trying to wrap my head around the idea of kindness in the act of destroying one’s own marriage, and in thereby making one’s own spouse and children miserable. Nor can I see any kindness in excusing people from such things.
    Depends on the people involved. Obviously divorces are going to include the worst marriages among the most venal people, but many divorces are quite amicable and without lasting animosity. I know a few like that. Especially when children are involved, and a long term relationship is necessitated by that, there’s a strong incentive for divorced couples to get along. And many do. I’ve known divorced couples who remained quite good friends. None of them or their children were miserable about it. So I don’t know where this attitude of endless gloom and misery comes from. Certainly that can be the case in the worst outcomes, but it isn’t some universal nightmare.
    I think we should save that shame for those people who actually do put one another and/or their children through misery, and not for divorced people as a whole. Give credit where due, and blame where due also.
    But as we said before, it’s often a mistake to blame our misery on circumstances, including divorce. Like happiness, misery comes from within also, and one of the problems with miserable divorces is the blaming of others for that misery that actually comes from within us. The positive side of tragedy is that it allows us to reflect upon ourselves, and change the way we operate from the inside, not merely trying to make everything work on the outside. In that respect, even divorce can be a benefit to us, if we let these tragedies sink in. Wisdom can come from even very personal suffering and failure.

  201. Church Lady

    I do have the time to observe that I agree that the cultural side of things is more important than the legal or political side of things, when it comes to norms and morals etc. But I observe that bad laws tend to have a bad influence on the culture.
    Thanks, Louise. That’s an example of arguing in good faith.

  202. Church Lady

    Thing is, the child would almost certainly be killed, thus negating any benefit of the exorcism.
    Well, you didn’t mention that in the supposition, so it seemed implied that the child would be hurt, but not that they’d be killed. I don’t think that one swift kick to the stomach is going to kill a child in most cases. Just as most operations where children are cut into with knives don’t kill them. And depending on the disease, sometimes even a high risk of death is worth it.
    So, basically what I’m saying is that this particular example isn’t terribly useful as a thought experiment. I would certainly grant that the very specific act of kicking a child is very unlikely to have any benefits in the real world. But that doesn’t really answer the general philosophical question about this sort of thing, in that there are many circumstances in which hurting a child could be of benefit to the child.
    There are also rare but all-too real situations in which extreme measures are required. I notice you didn’t address the real life question I raised about Saddam’s army and the children at that school.
    Now, what if the situation were even worse (and this has been the case under Nazi or Communist China), where, say, all the school children are lined up, and you are told that unless you kill the first child in line, a soldier will kill them anyway, and then present the next child in line for you to kill, and if you can refusing, all the children will be killed. But if you kill even one child, the killings will stop.
    At what point do you decide to kill one of the children to stop the slaughter of them all? The first one? The second? Never? Which is more important to you, not doing evil, or stopping evil from being done?
    I don’t think Orwell’s question about kicking a child is going to be of much use in this situation. In fact, I can’t think of a real life situation in which it would be of any real value. The answers are generally too easy, unless one complicates the situation with added suppositions. A really useful thought problem should be hard to solve.

  203. Church Lady

    btw Mac, you mentioned something earlier about being a non-Christian, at least at on point in your life. Is that true now also? What are your own religious view and/or affiliations?

  204. Catholic.

  205. “At what point do you decide to kill one of the children to stop the slaughter of them all? The first one? The second? Never? Which is more important to you, not doing evil, or stopping evil from being done?”
    Never. It is wrong to do evil so that good may come. What’s “important to me” is immaterial.
    And btw, if you kick a little kid in the abdomen as hard as you can, he or she will most likely die. But you can change the example if you like. Hitting a child in the head with a hammer works equally well.

  206. Church Lady

    And btw, if you kick a little kid in the abdomen as hard as you can, he or she will most likely die. But you can change the example if you like. Hitting a child in the head with a hammer works equally well.
    How about blowing them up with a bomb that lands in their village? Because, you know, that happened quite often during the invasion of Normandy. 16,000 French civilians were killed in the first few days alone. I’m sure quite a few were children. So is fighting the Nazis off the books also? Or fighting the Japanese? Or just about anyone else?
    If you’re a total pacifist I can sort of respect that, as long as you don’t expect everyone else to be one. I think it’s understandable when others are not, and consider fighting wars that involve civilian casualties to be justifiable in at least some cases (though by no means all).
    The people of Normandy and France really did greet the Allies as liberators, after all, even though there were horrific civilian casualties, much of it caused by the Allies themselves.
    As for your example, why didn’t you just ask about “killing a child” rather than “kicking them in the stomach”, which sounds more like an act of cruelty than murder, and is a very unorthodox and not obvious way of killing children. I’m not sure why you object to my finding some logical weakness in your question, since you literally asked for “any” possible justification. As with most things, if you stretch the suppositions far enough, anything really can be justified, based on overall results.
    Say, for example, that child has his hands on a button that launches nuclear missiles that will destroy the world, and is wearing armor that only has an opening at the stomach. So the only way to prevent the child from launching the missiles, is to kick the child as hard as you can in the stomach, even if that might kill the child? I guess you can still say no, since you know the whole scenario is absurd. But then so is the original question.
    btw, I would say that kicking children
    as hard as you can in the stomach will not necessarily kill them at all. For one, it depends on who’s doing the kicking and what kind of footwear they have on. If they are barefoot, it’s not likely at all to kill them. And also, children are remarkably flexible, and in high speed crashes or other physical assaults (accidental or human-caused) are surprisingly survivable, more so than adults in a lot of cases. Of course, I don’t know anyone who has done studies on the specifics of children surviving being kicked, but it doesn’t logically follow that it’s a death blow we are talking about. And furthermore, if in my original answer the simple fact of demonic possession protected the child from the more severe effects of being kicked, then it’s even less likely that they would be killed.
    Never. It is wrong to do evil so that good may come. What’s “important to me” is immaterial.
    Getting back to the reality of this moral statement, it’s basically a recipe for paralysis. Because in the real world, when talking about morality in the big picture of things, there’s no moral system we can enact that won’t have casualties. Even well-intentioned do-gooderism leads to death for children. Even pacifism does. Now, maybe you don’t actually care about the fate of children, as in that school killing situation. At least, not enough to do what needs to be done to stop it. I’m just not convinced that this is a superior form of morality. It seems like you have constructed a morality that simply can’t be refuted by anything, which is your own business, but the fact that you can’t find any situation that would refute it doesn’t carry much meaning. It’s a circular argument in other words.
    Which begs the question, where did this morality come from in the first place? And why is it irrefutable by presumption, rather than by demonstration?
    After all, children die all the time. They die even when we try our best not to let them die. They die as a result of all kinds of well-meaning things. The world is out to kill them, it seems like. And it succeeds quite often. Does that make the world as a whole evil? Does that make the creator of such a world evil?
    You do realize that’s the conclusion Ivan Karamazov was aiming at. And your own moral absolutism leads inexorably towards that result. So fine, God is evil too. Where does that leave us?

  207. Church Lady

    Let me add a metaphysical answer to the question.
    Suppose reincarnation is true. (And for what it’s worth, I believe it is true.)
    Suppose that in a past life, you had killed or tortured or done very bad things to children. To learn the lesson of how terrible doing such things is, in this lifetime you get the experience of being kicked in the stomach, maybe even dying as a result. In that case, being kicked in the stomach could be a good experience for you. Overall, then, human cruelties to one another is merely part of a learning experience in what is, essentially, a very complex virtual reality machine. Like a totally immersive computer game. And thus, without any eternal implications for our souls, or even our real bodies and lives.

  208. Church Lady

    Here’s a study on “major blunt abdominal trauma” in children admitted to hospitals. It doesn’t specify a single kick being the sole cause of the trauma, but is likely multiple blows. Even then, the mortality rate is only 45%, which suggests to me that a single kick is by no means a sure death blow for a child.

  209. There is a very elaborate and systematic treatment of the ends/means question in Catholic moral theology, developed over a thousand years or so, making all sorts of crucial distinctions, some of which apply to the thought experiments here. Way too much for me to think about getting into now, and anyway I’m far from being an expert. There’s probably some reasonably concise summary somewhere. Even with all that, though, people still find room to argue about specific situations.

  210. What Mac said.
    “Suppose reincarnation is true. (And for what it’s worth, I believe it is true.)”
    Well, that explains how any common ground here seems so hard to come by.

  211. “You do realize that’s the conclusion Ivan Karamazov was aiming at. And your own moral absolutism leads inexorably towards that result.”
    Only if one accepts Ivan’s presuppositions about how the cosmos works. Dostoevsky himself certainly didn’t believe that.

  212. Church Lady

    Only if one accepts Ivan’s presuppositions about how the cosmos works. Dostoevsky himself certainly didn’t believe that.
    Of course. Dostoevsky created Ivan to demonstrate some of the worst traits and traps of the intellectual. His “thought experiments” were a part of that trap. I’m just pointing out that by taking his thought-experiments seriously, one falls into that trap, which is precisely what Ivan wants, and what Dostoevsky is warning us about.

  213. Church Lady

    ?Well, that explains how any common ground here seems so hard to come by.
    Not really so hard, unless one doesn’t even try.

  214. His “thought experiments” were a part of that trap. I’m just pointing out that by taking his thought-experiments seriously, one falls into that trap, which is precisely what Ivan wants, and what Dostoevsky is warning us about.
    I’d say that’s a misreading of Dostoevsky. What he’s warning us of is the logical conclusions of some readily accepted modernist views, the logic of which modernists often don’t pursue to their ends. This is applicable to many of his characters besides Ivan: Raskolnikov in C&P, Shigalov in Demons, the Underground Man, etc.
    The idea that the thought-experiments are somehow tricks on the unwary reader doesn’t add up. Dostoevsky was no post-modernist, and he took the notion that ideas have consequences seriously.
    “Not really so hard, unless one doesn’t even try”
    If one person has the view that history is recurrent and cyclical, and another that it is linear and telic, it seems to me that it will be rather difficult for the two to find common ground on its meaning.

  215. “I’d say that’s a misreading of Dostoevsky.”
    Definitely.

  216. Church Lady

    I’d say that’s a misreading of Dostoevsky. What he’s warning us of is the logical conclusions of some readily accepted modernist views, the logic of which modernists often don’t pursue to their ends. This is applicable to many of his characters besides Ivan: Raskolnikov in C&P, Shigalov in Demons, the Underground Man, etc.
    That’s a distinction without a difference. “readily accepted modernist views” is precisely what I meant by Dostoevsky warning us about intellectualism.
    Also, the dude was way ahead of his time. He was warning us about modernism before modernism had even come into vogue.
    Also, he wrote on many different levels. He portrays Ivan as a devious intellectual trickster, and anyone who takes Ivan’s arguments at face value as being Dostoevsky’s own is a naive fool. It’s one of the great character creations in literature, but not a mouthpiece for the author’s views at all. Often, quite the opposite. Ivan is someone trapped by his own ingenious intellect into creating logical fantasies and fallacies that render him, essentially, immoral and incapable of life. Both this little thought-experiment, and the Grand Inquisitor story itself, are part of Ivan’s heavily flawed character and outlook.
    That Dostoevsky took ideas seriously and thought they had consequences is precisely the point. He’s warning us that Ivan’s ideas are terrible ones, and have serious consequences, precisely because they can be so seductive.
    If one person has the view that history is recurrent and cyclical, and another that it is linear and telic, it seems to me that it will be rather difficult for the two to find common ground on its meaning.
    Life has this odd habit of undermining any fixed views about time and history, including both the cyclical and the linear. Even Hindus and Buddhists include both. Even Christianity has a long history of acknowledging the importance of the cyclical. Especially since the Second Coming failed to come about and end history.
    One example: in medieval times, every educated Churchman was expected to have an extensive knowledge of astrology, that most cyclical of the arts and sciences.

  217. Church Lady

    Here’s one way in which reincarnation can be incorporated into Christianity without changing its basic power and message much at all: by acknowledging that the full Christian project of self-transformation and surrender of oneself to God is so enormously difficult, that hardly anyone could possibly accomplish it in one lifetime. So instead of only getting one shot at it, we keep coming back over and over again until we get it right.
    Maybe it would be slightly embarrassing that the Christian churches and their theologians missed this aspect of the cosmos, but better late than never.
    I think it makes the whole of Christianity more viable, not less so, including especially the problem of evil and theodicy. But sure, insist on a lack of common ground if you like.

  218. The task of Christianity is to be faithful to what was revealed and to grow in understanding of it, not to be “viable” in any other way.
    I can see the appeal of “until we get it right”. In fact some conceptions of purgatory incorporate that angle. But there’s just no place or grounds for belief in reincarnation in Christianity.

  219. Church Lady

    I would suggest that the task of Christianity is not merely to be passively faithful, but to grow in faith, and in surrender to God, so as to re-unite with God in spirit and in truth. That is the Way that Christ revealed. So it’s not a contradiction to respond to the revelation by a process of growth in faith until we truly “love God with all our mind, body and breath, and our neighbor as our very self”. That’s quite a project I’d say, and hardly anyone completes it in one lifetime. So reincarnation certainly could have a place within Christianity, if one takes the demands of Christ seriously. But, if one just assumes that simple belief in dogma and not committing grievous sins is enough, I suppose not.
    And yes, purgatory does incorporate some aspects of this. I think reincarnation is a better solution than purgatory, however.
    And it also answers problematic questions about how very young children (not to mention fetuses) could ever get into heaven, given how little exposure to faith they have. And the same goes for those who preceded the time of Jesus, or lived in lands that never had the gospel preached to them. And so on.

  220. In saying “Christianity” rather than “Christians” I meant Christianity as a body of thought–“belief system” as people like to say nowadays. Christian theology, in other words. Of course there have been arguments from the beginning about what is and isn’t part of revelation, but as far as I know reincarnation has never been part of the mix. Hard to see how it could be reconciled with either scripture or tradition.
    Interesting article. I file things like that–persuasive accounts of ghosts, telepathy, foreknowledge, etc.–under “more things in heaven and earth”.

  221. Church Lady

    I wouldn’t say that reincarnation has been a significant issue in Christianity, unless you recall that people asked if Jesus (and John the Baptist as well) was a reincarnation of various Biblical prophets. So the concept was not alien to Judaism of the time, nor did it seem at all antithetical.
    And I understand that reincarnation has not been a part of Christian theology. But neither was a 4.5 billion year old earth, or a vast galactic universe. When you say things like “there’s just no place or grounds for belief in reincarnation in Christianity”, I hope you don’t mean that if reincarnation is true, Christianity cannot be true. Because as with other findings about the universe we live in, it’s rather apparent that the Christian tradition doesn’t know everything, and it should be humble enough to acknowledge that.
    As I say, I pretty much believe in reincarnation due to the body of evidence out there (of which that article is only a small portion), personal experience, and the fact that it seems to make a far more logical fit to the cycles of human life and our signs of spiritual progress than a one-shot lifetime, judgment, and then eternity in heaven. Including, as I say, the high demands that Jesus put on his followers, very very few of whom seem capable as yet of fulfilling them.
    What I’m suggesting is that the core Christian teachings of Jesus about loving God with everything we’ve got, and turning away from the seductions of the world and towards him, require severything of us, and that takes time. Patience is a great virtue, and while progress can be measured to some extent as a simple linear movement towards God, life moves in cycles. Combining the two, it’s certainly within reason to see reincarnation as the bridge between the two in which we work through our sinful nature and turn ourselves wholly over to God. One lifetime seems terrifically paltry in that overall scheme of things.
    So, just as the physical universe is much larger than most of the ancients imagined, so may our metaphysical universe, and our human condition, be much larger and longer-lived, spanning many lifetimes (and perhaps many worlds).

  222. “He portrays Ivan as a devious intellectual trickster, and anyone who takes Ivan’s arguments at face value as being Dostoevsky’s own is a naive fool. It’s one of the great character creations in literature, but not a mouthpiece for the author’s views at all. Often, quite the opposite.”
    Precisely. But from Dostoevsky’s standpoint Ivan’s logic is impeccable, given his presuppositions. His thought experiment is perfectly valid, and his conclusion correct. Under no circumstances is it permissible to torture a child to death, whatever the result for the “many”: there is no doubt that Dostoevsky would agree with Ivan’s conclusion. Ivan’s error is in his assumption that children must suffer “for a reason,” and thus, he wants to “return his ticket.”
    The Orthodox response is that suffering is a symptom of the fallen world, and does not necessarily have a “reason.” This is not to say, of course, that God cannot bring good out of it. But as D.B. Hart put it, Christians are nowhere promised that all our questions will be answered, but instead, that all our tears will be wiped away.

  223. Church Lady

    Robert, I think you are ignoring the fact that “torturing a child to death even for the good of the many is not permissible”, is not Ivan’s conclusion. It’s his argument for why God cannot exist, since we see children tortured to death over and over again in this universe, even just by disease and malnutrition and of course evil people, but not at all limited to that. Ivan’s premises not only show that this is impermissible, but that since God not only permits it, but even enjoins in through all sorts of natural “acts of God”, that God cannot be the all-loving creator that Christianity claims he is. Either he is a sadist, or has some reason of his own for permittitng children to be so tortured, which by Ivan’s logic is impossible.
    The point is that Ivan’s premises and his conclusions are both wrong. The only problem is that we can’t see quite where they are wrong. Like you say, we can’t see the whole picture, and we can’t say for sure why the tortured sufferings of children are necessary for God’s plan. But that is similar to not knowing why Jesus’ suffering on the cross was necessary either. He, too, was an innocent child at heart, and he was tortured as well, as a part of God’s plan. So the whole question does remain integral to the whole of the Christian narrative. It is for some reason necessary for the innocent to suffer and die as part of a larger scheme that benefits the salvation of all – including those innocents who suffer.
    In other words, when Ivan is talking about the torture of children, he isn’t just talking about people who might torture children for some greater good, he’s talking about God himself. And thus casting grave doubts on the existence of God. It isn’t really some moral lesson for you or me, it’s a lesson about the whole concept of God, and whether it can survive this sort of inspection and questioning.
    And that’s one of the reasons I reject the whole thought question – because its premises are so limited and aimed at a particular answer – atheism. It’s a mistake I think to imagine that Dostoevsky actually thinks Ivan’s conclusions are true. Even the conclusion that torturing children is impermissible – as logical and morally impervious to refutation as it might seem – doesn’t hold up when we look at God’s role in our lives. As you say, good can come from even the most terrible things, if we have faith in God. And if we lose that faith, nothing good comes even of good things.
    That’s where Alyosha comes in, btw.

  224. It’s hard to see reincarnation ever becoming as established scientifically as the billions-of-years age of the universe and similar things. But I’ll cross that bridge if I ever come to it. You are certainly right about the high demands made by Jesus, but it’s a pretty generally agreed-upon teaching of Christianity that we can never get there on our own, so reincarnation doesn’t really solve that problem.

  225. Church Lady

    I wouldn’t expect reincarnation to be scientifically verifiable, since it’s a metaphysical theory. But there certainly is a growing body of evidentiary reports about it that seem quite strong. My point wasn’t so much about proof, as that there’s no reason to presume that the ancient Christian tradition would get everything right about either the physical or the metaphysical universe. And the fact that they missed many things about the physical universe makes it quite reasonable to think they’ve missed many things about the metaphysical universe as well.
    Also, I don’t see how reincarnation changes the role of grace. It merely allows grace to unfold over a longer time span of reception and response. I’m not of the view that when one dies, suddenly all one’s sins, and one’s tendency towards sin, are suddenly removed, and then one enters heaven. Much more is required than that – a process in life of growing in faith and receiving grace. That’s the hard process that requires a very long time – much longer than a single human lifetime could possibly see mature in us. In fact, those who really are mature in this manner – the saints – I would say are evidence of people who have been doing this for many lifetimes. We do not all seem to be at the same stage of spiritual maturity, after all. So I think reincarnation helps account for those seemingly inborn differences.

  226. Louise

    I only have a minute. God’s torturing of children is a new one to me.

  227. “The point is that Ivan’s premises and his conclusions are both wrong. The only problem is that we can’t see quite where they are wrong. Like you say, we can’t see the whole picture, and we can’t say for sure why the tortured sufferings of children are necessary for God’s plan.”
    No! The “tortured sufferings of children” are IN NO WAY necessary for God’s plan. That is the point.
    Ivan’s conclusion is that if God makes these “sufferings of innocents” a necessary part of his plan, then Ivan doesn’t want to believe in that sort of God, and will return his ticket. In this he is correct, and Dostoevsky knows it. If that’s what God is like, better to be an atheist. But of course Dosty would say that that is not what God is like. He is not saying that this IS what God is like but we have to believe in him anyways. You seem to forget that he was a faithful Russian Orthodox Christian.
    Those who have faith in God have faith despite the suffering of innocents, and that suffering does not require a “reason.” Our faith is in God’s “character” as reflected in Christ, and all human suffering has been assumed in Him, the prototypical
    “innocent.”
    “it’s a pretty generally agreed-upon teaching of Christianity that we can never get there on our own, so reincarnation doesn’t really solve that problem.”
    Exactly. The Orthodox believe in a purgation after death, but that it is outside of time in some sense. It may be instantaneous — we don’t know. But the positing of multiple lives flies in the face of too many Scriptural passages, not to mention the Patristic writings. Anyone trying to reconcile Christian eschatology with reincarnation is not only barking up the wrong tree, they’re not even in the right forest.

  228. The problem of suffering, in particular the suffering of children, is the the problem of faith for me. None of the other questions really bothers me very much.

  229. Church Lady

    God’s torturing of children is a new one to me.
    You’ve never heard of childhood diseases; smallpox, measles, leukemia, horrible birth defects, etc.?

  230. Church Lady

    The problem of suffering, in particular the suffering of children, is the the problem of faith for me. None of the other questions really bothers me very much.
    Yes, it certainly is, especially if this is a one-lifetime thing. Why would some people have only a brief childhood of agony and pain if this is the only lifetime they get? I admit that it’s not as if reincarnation wipes that problem away entirely, but at least it appears within a broad context of experience over many lifetimes that includes many, many other possibilities, including that of a religious life. And it gives all of us the time to reflect on our sufferings and grow from them, which we sorely need.

  231. Church Lady

    No! The “tortured sufferings of children” are IN NO WAY necessary for God’s plan. That is the point.
    That is the point Ivan uses to argue that since such tortured sufferings among innocent children are commonplace, that God cannot exist. If you affirm that point, you are also affirming Ivan’s conclusion, which logically and morally follows from it. The argument that we have free will and choice doesn’t work for children, who haven’t yet developed such capacities. At least it doesn’t work if this is their one and only lifetime. If they have many lifetimes, and are reaping the fruits of past actions, including the Fall, then it may seem rather perverse, but at least it seems to make some sense.
    Ivan’s conclusion is that if God makes these “sufferings of innocents” a necessary part of his plan, then Ivan doesn’t want to believe in that sort of God, and will return his ticket. In this he is correct, and Dostoevsky knows it. If that’s what God is like, better to be an atheist. But of course Dosty would say that that is not what God is like. He is not saying that this IS what God is like but we have to believe in him anyways. You seem to forget that he was a faithful Russian Orthodox Christian.
    I’m very much aware of Dosteovsky’s faith. His faith is so strong that it becomes blind in the face of these sufferings of the innocents. He does not even deny that their sufferings must be a part of his plan, he only says we can’t see that plan in its fullness sufficiently to understand how these things could fit into it. So we must have faith in it.
    That’s one of the reasons I think reincarnation makes so much sense. It may well be a part of those things which the Church and its fathers could not see, that helps explain these things. So it’s not something counter to the faith, but is supportive of it. Or at least potentially so.
    Those who have faith in God have faith despite the suffering of innocents, and that suffering does not require a “reason.”
    That’s not what Dostoevsky is saying. He’s saying there are reasons, but we just don’t see them or know what they are, but if we could see the bigger picture, we would see even these sufferings of the innocents as reasonable and just, and serving God’s purpose. He’s not rejecting reason, he’s merely pointing to our lack of omniscience.
    The Orthodox believe in a purgation after death, but that it is outside of time in some sense. It may be instantaneous — we don’t know.
    Yes, and I’m not even negating the notion of purgation, I’m merely suggesting that much of it occurs within this world, over many lifetimes. That doesn’t mean there is no purgation between lives, or a judgment there either that helps us move onto the next life, only that it is not final “until we have paid the last penny.” And that debt takes a long time to work off.
    But the positing of multiple lives flies in the face of too many Scriptural passages, not to mention the Patristic writings.
    I’m not convinced that’s true. It may not be something they were aware of, but I don’t think it really conflicts with very much at all, and what it does conflict with is fairly superficial, or in need of correction anyway.
    Anyone trying to reconcile Christian eschatology with reincarnation is not only barking up the wrong tree, they’re not even in the right forest.
    I think that is probably a wrong approach to the issue. It would be like saying (as some evangelicals do) that anyone saying the earth is billions of years old or the universe is composed of billions of galaxies is completely off base and that Christianity can’t be reconciled with it. They have a good point if we take the Bible literally. But even traditional Catholics have long reconciled the Bible and Church teachings with modern science. So those who argue that the two are incompatible are the ones barking up the wrong tree.
    And I would say the same is true of reincarnation. It doesn’t carry the same kind of evidentiary weight as science, of course, but it still has quite a good body of support, and significant metaphysical logic behind it. Furthermore, if it is simply true in the same sense that the scientific age of the physical universe is true, then Christianity must either be reconciled with it also, or simply be considered untrue.
    Btw, an interesting theory about reincarnation I’ve heard of helps explain the young earth creationist fanaticism. According to some, a large influx of “new souls” began reincarnating on earth some 5-10,000 years ago, and it’s many of these souls who intuitively sense that their “earth experience” is about that age, so they find that number for the age of the earth to be the most true to them. And so in some sense, they are actually right, but not in the literal, material sense.

  232. Church Lady

    Fourth paragraph above should be in italics, as a quote from Rob’s previous post.

  233. Robert Gotcher

    John Lennon once said in an interview that the line in the song “Girl” (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEvbRUmpdUc) that goes “Was she told when she was young that pain would lead to pleasure” was directed at Christianity. One of the reasons he didn’t like Christianity (at least the version he learned as a child) was the idea that one needed to be tortured to get to heaven.

  234. Louise

    God is not the cause of those sufferings. God does not torture children.

  235. Church Lady

    God is not the cause of those sufferings. God does not torture children.
    According to the Bible, Adam and Eve were thrown out of the Garden of Eden for disobeying God and eating of the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.
    The consequences of that punishment is that children now grow up, not in the Garden of Eden, but in a world where many of them are routinely tortured to death by terrible diseases. Try visiting a child’s leukemia clinic sometimes.
    One can make a reasonable argument that the sufferings of adults are due to their sinfulness, but what sinfulness can we attribute to a child born into this world for the first time? What did they do to deserve such torture and death?
    Be serious about this. At least Mac acknowledges that it’s a major problem with Christianity. Saying God didn’t do this is itself a form of heresy. These things are the direct results of God’s punishment of humanity. Can we really just blame Adam and Eve for it all? Cannot God show justice and mercy towards these children?
    So, either there’s a lot more to the matter that we don’t see, or God is not a very good God, or there is no God.
    That’s why I fail to see why reincarnation can be rejected out of hand as being part of that explanation that we can’t see. It’s pretty much acknowledged throughout Christianity that Christian theology and the Church fathers don’t know everything, and don’t see everything, and don’t see all of how God works. So why can’t reincarnation be a part of that unseen explanation? It seems absurd to say that there’s an unseen explanation, but to reject out of hand any explanation outside of the known tradition, which is by its own admission incomplete. Must not whatever the explanation is be outside of that tradition by definition?

  236. Robert Gotcher

    I think God can’t be let off the hook, just because he doesn’t actively will the suffering of children (or anyone, for that matter). It is his world and he created it knowing full well this would be the result.
    The reason why reincarnation is not necessary is because salvation is a grace, not something earned. God is merciful; he is going to give us an eternal life that far outstrips anything we could ever become worthy of, no matter how many lives we lived and how much good karma we accumulated. It just isn’t necessary because all is gift.

  237. Church Lady

    The reason why reincarnation is not necessary is because salvation is a grace, not something earned.
    I don’t think that follows. As in this lifetime, grace take time to sink in and change us. And we do indeed have to change. We have to turn to God more and more fully to receive that grace, which is what transforms us. As the saying goes, if the whole ocean falls on your head, but you only hold up a thimble, that’s as much as you’ll get.
    Reincarnation is not a solution to the matter of grace, but of time. I’m not suggesting it because we need time for self-effort, but we need time to receive and be transformed by grace, which as far as I can see seems to take a lot of time. We need time to grow a bigger recepticle for grace. And grace is what helps us grow that also. But grace takes time. And a single human lifetime is very short. The eternal life promised also means a lot of time could be involved in the process of growing in grace.
    Nor am I suggesting that “good karma” is the goal of reincarnation. Again, I’m suggesting that the Christian program of salvation through grace is the real purpose of reincarnation. Not better lives. In fact, it might require many lives of suffering to open ourselves to grace. Taking up the cross, you know? So the sign of a serious person is not necessarily an easy life full of good karma, but a very hard, even painful and tortured life that helps drive home the fact that the purpose of these lives is our turning to God, not our enjoying of the world itself and its goods.

  238. Robert Gotcher

    Oh. Okay. So the point is, you don’t believe in hell.

  239. “That is the point Ivan uses to argue that since such tortured sufferings among innocent children are commonplace, that God cannot exist. If you affirm that point, you are also affirming Ivan’s conclusion, which logically and morally follows from it.”
    Nope. The conclusion only follows from that point if you assume that those sufferings are in some sense necessary to God’s plan, that He has either actively willed them, or allowed them “for a reason.” This understanding of God smacks more of a Calvinistic determinism than of a theology which views Christ as the express image of the Father.
    For a brief but trenchant explication of this understanding see D.B. Hart’s little book The Doors of the Sea: Where Was God in the Tsunami?, which contains direct engagement with Ivan’s argument. (Hart is one of America’s premier theologians, and an Orthodox himself.)

  240. Connecting reincarnation to Christianity is an interesting speculation, but apart from its merits or lack thereof, the idea isn’t going to get any purchase. Not only, as Robert says, is it unnecessary, and as Rob says without foundation in the tradition, but Christianity just doesn’t work that way. You can’t just add new doctrines because you find them appealing or helpful. The people who try to do that generally find themselves standing well apart from the tradition, by mutual agreement. I can’t imagine any of the three main bodies of Christianity–Protestant, Catholic, Orthodox–ever taking this idea on board.

  241. “It seems absurd to say that there’s an unseen explanation, but to reject out of hand any explanation outside of the known tradition, which is by its own admission incomplete. Must not whatever the explanation is be outside of that tradition by definition?”
    Scripture states that the faith was “once delivered to the saints.” The early Church was very careful to weigh any speculation against that which had been handed down. The Tradition cannot be deemed incomplete, certainly not by its own admission, and whatever explanation is postulated must jibe with it. Reincarnation simply does not fit that bill.

  242. Louise

    I always have a good laugh when humans presume to judge God! Looks pretty daft from where I am.

  243. Louise

    “Saying God didn’t do this is itself a form of heresy.”
    I laff!
    I didn’t say the problem of pain/suffering wasn’t a “problematic” part of Christianity. I’m rejecting the notion that God tortures children. He does not.
    But you would, apparently, in order to make everyone else happy. So you’re in no position to judge God.

  244. Robert Gotcher

    Another problem with reincarnation is that it depends on a body/soul dualism that doesn’t jibe with the Tradition. The soul is the form of the body. Each soul is unique, even if it shares the common human nature. It is made for a particular body which is informed by it. A soul can’t just move from body to body.

  245. Robert Gotcher

    *jive

  246. Wow. I can’t believe this is still going on.
    AMDG

  247. Robert Gotcher

    Janet,
    Church Lady has a lot of time on his hands.

  248. Well, there’s no way I’ll have time to catch up.
    AMDG

  249. Actually, Robert, I sorta think–without looking it up–that “jibe” is right there. Oddly, I was having that discussion with myself shortly before I read your comment.
    Now that I’ve committed myself, I’ll look it up.

  250. Third meaning of “jibe” in this definition: “agree”
    By the way, although I haven’t read the Hart book, I have to agree with Robert that in some sense God is responsible for the suffering of children: “It is his world and he created it knowing full well this would be the result.” My only recourse is to say “This is horrible but I’m going to trust that you know what you’re doing.”

  251. Church Lady

    I’m not going to pretend that Christianity as a tradition is ever going to accept reincarnation into its doctrines – certainly not among the traditional Churches. As to the charge that it’s unnecessary, I can only say that applies only if it’s untrue. If one doesn’t care whether something is true, but only if it fits into a particular tradition of thought, then a 4.5 billion year old earth is unnecessary also. As many Christians have already decided.
    I bring up the matter only because it makes sense to me, and to many others, as something with great potential as a metaphysical reality. If it isn’t real, then I don’t care about it, and if it is, I don’t care how it fits in with traditional Christian views. It will have to, or those views will be seen to be false. One way or another, that probably occurs shortly after we die, so it’s definitely something that will either be confirmed or falsified. Just probably not while we live.
    And yes, aspects of the traditional notion of what a soul is would have to change. I can’t see anything wrong with that, however. Change and adaptation are good things, no? The more we learn about things, the more ideas about them change. The idea that some particular group of saints or prophets at some particular time in the past got the full and complete and infallible revelation doesn’t seem to add up very well over time. I wouldn’t confine that to this one issue either.
    And hey, if people are complaining that I’m spending too much time conversing here, believe me, I can leave any time you like. Just say the word.

  252. Rob G

    “if people are complaining that I’m spending too much time conversing here, believe me, I can leave any time you like”
    I don’t think it’s that. It’s that your posts tend to be rather lengthy and expansive, and thus sometimes difficult to respond to.

  253. Robert Gotcher

    It wasn’t a complaint, just an observation.

  254. Robert Gotcher

    re: “jibe.” I guess I should trust my intuition more.

  255. I really love the word “jive” as a jokey term for a form of glib deception. “Nobody loves me but my mama / And she could be jivin’, too”
    You’re welcome here, CL. Any civil and intelligent discussion is welcome, and yours has been that. But, following Rob, in my case it’s really impossible for me to reply in anything approaching detail to so many lengthy comments.

  256. Louise

    It would be easier to converse with Church Lady IRL because we would all have the same amount of time together (unless I was trying to look after my children simultaneously!) and could more or less stick to one or two points at a time. but most people here don’t have time for more than a few fairly quick comments a day.
    The fact that we engage at all means we are interested, at least.

  257. Church Lady

    Okay, thanks. Just wanted to make sure I’m not overstaying my welcome. You’ve all been quite generous and graceful.
    Someone asked if I believe in hell, and I’d have to give a qualified yes, in that many people here on earth are going through hell. I think we all experience the hell of separation from God at one time or another. But metaphysically, I don’t believe in a permanent afterlife hell that people are eternally condemned to because of their actions here on earth, or their failure to make it through purgatory in a finite time.
    I think we all have infinite time to get it right with God, and that’s one of the reasons I believe in reincarnation (as well as lives in non-physical worlds as well). I see the whole structure of the cosmos, physical and metaphysical, as designed for the purpose of helping us find out way back to God, or beyond the illusion that we ever separated from God.
    Even great spells of suffering, which we might call “hell” are there to help us in this great project/adventure. Even the sufferings of children fit into this grand scheme. Everything, including atheism, dovetails with this purpose. No one can ever be truly damned.
    And there are many even in traditional Christianity who think similarly. Even the eastern Orthodox tend towards that line. In that respect, I suppose one could say that my view is that all of this, both on the physical and metaphysical level of experience, is really a form of purgatory, with no inescapable hell in the traditional sense of the word.
    Also, I don’t see how any of you have demonstrated that reincarnation is unnecessary. Well, I admit that as a particular solution to the problem it may not be necessary, but some sort of out-of-the-box solution to the sorts of incongruities in Christian theology that are easily pointed to are indeed necessary to reconcile the many contradiction we can point out. Ivan is at least useful in that sense.
    So an reasonable answer is necessary. I happen to think reincarnation is probably the best one out there, but I’m open to others as well. As for grace, why can’t reincarnation be seen as a graceful gift given by a patient God who realizes how great his demands are on us all? I think that would fit in with the general concept of a harsh and difficult God who nevertheless always provides the means for the fulfillment of his demands.

  258. Church Lady

    Tying things back to the original topic, if reincarnation is true, then we not only are the product of history, we are the ones who made history in the first place. And so the progression of history is our own progression.

  259. Well, again, your case for reincarnation is logical in the abstract. But I don’t know how to convey to you what I (we) mean in saying it’s unnecessary. It’s completely speculative, and from our point of view doesn’t solve any problem that the tradition doesn’t. And the fact that the tradition doesn’t tell us everything–which we all know–doesn’t mean that it doesn’t exclude some things. It pretty well excludes reincarnation. At very best you’d have to say it offers no purchase for the idea.

  260. Church Lady

    I suppose it’s unnecessary to resolve the contradictions in Christian teaching and cosmology if one just pretends there are none, and all is honky dory. But hand-waving is not an argument, it’s a way of pretending one doesn’t need to make an argument. Which only impresses those who already agree with you.
    I suppose I don’t see how the tradition adequately resolves its many problems. Neither do a lot of people, which is why in much of the developed world it is fading away.
    As for reincarnation, it’s no more speculative than Christianity itself. If you can accept Christianity, it’s no stretch at all to accept reincarnation. In fact, I have many Christian friends who accept reincarnation as real, and see no serious conflict between the two. It doesn’t bother them that the Church fathers and scriptures missed this, any more than the fact that they missed quantum mechanics.

  261. Rob G

    Sorry, but I’ve got to opt out of this conversation. Too much wheel-spinning for me.

  262. Robert Gotcher

    The Tradition doesn’t “miss” reincarnation. It excludes it. Reincarnation is not necessary because God is merciful and generous. He gives everyone conceived what is necessary to achieve their destiny in one life–and generously. He goes to the greatest lengths to make sure that anyone can get to heaven, even the worst sinner.
    He definitely doesn’t make people live through life after miserable life in order to “learn” or to achieve some new level of virtue or for grace to finally sink in, although if we do need purification after death, God has established a means for that–once again, a mercy. The sufferings of purgatory are not the chaotic, irrational, hateful sufferings of hell or of a fallen world.
    God knows that the glories to come so far outstrip whatever possible suffering anyone experiences in this life that it will seem in retrospect as nothing. The suffering of little children ought to seem awful to us, because it is. In fact, one of the reasons for their suffering (which is there because of the general dysfunction of a fallen world and will be amply compensated for) is for us.
    All reality is social, and it never does to interpret a situation outside of its social significance. Our sufferings give us scope for the operation of charity and being the presence of God to others in the world.
    The only contradiction in Christianity that gives me pause is the one between God’s infinite mercy and the eternity of hell. One thing for sure, though, is that if someone is in hell for eternity, it isn’t God’s fault. He a) has done everything possible to give them eternal life with Him, and b) He doesn’t stop showering His infinite love on them. He can’t help that. They refuse. Why? I don’t know. It doesn’t make sense to me.
    As for who is in hell, there is no way we can know from observing a life on earth who goes to hell. The greatest, most evil-seeming person in the world may have at a crucial moment accepted God’s love and have been saved. He certainly is given so much opportunity to do so, and so much ability to do so, that he really has to consciously and with full knowledge say “NO” in order to wind up in hell for eternity. There are no accidental damnations.

  263. What could the empirical evidence of reincarnation possibly be?
    I’m sorry if you have already discussed this, I haven’t had time to read the whole discussion yet.
    AMDG

  264. Church Lady

    What could the empirical evidence of reincarnation possibly be?
    Aside from the testimony of many in the Dharmic religions of Hinduism, Buddhism, and Jainism, there’s also a substantial body of evidence in the modern scientific and psychiatric literature. See Stevenson, Tucker, Newton, Weiss, Wambach, etc. These are all Ph.D.’s and/or medical doctors trying to use scientific methods to look into reincarnation.
    Stevenson was probably the first to attempt to collect and study recollections of past lives, and attempt to investigate the validity of those recollections. He published several books documenting what he found, much of which is quite compelling. Tucker was a younger student of Stevenson, who concentrated on the past-life recollections of children, which were particularly strong (and which tended to fade as the children grew up).
    Newton and Weiss are practicing therapists who had been using hypnotic regression techniques on some of their patients in the course of therapy to recover traumatic childhood memories to assist the therapeutic process. Inadvertently, some of these patients began regressing to traumatic episodes that could not have happened to them in this lifetime, but which seemed to have occurred in past lifetimes. At first they didn’t think there was any validity to that psychic impression, but used it anyway because of the powerful emotional contents whose arising seemed to help patients recover from their disturbances. But in the course of treatment, coincidences kept arising that seemed only explicable if these were actual past life memories. Eventually, both of them (working independently) began to document these memories, numbering in the many thousands over several decades, including memories of the periods in between lifetimes.
    One of the things they found interesting was that these past-life and between life memories occurred in patients regardless of their religious affiliation or beliefs. It was not in any way limited to those who believed in reincarnation. Devout Christian fundamentalists also had these experiences. And in most cases it did not shake their religious beliefs, but often strengthened them. In fact, Weiss himself, a secular Jew, had past-life memories arise of Christian lifetimes, and even a sighting of Jesus himself.
    Which brings me to my own experience of the phenomena. My first religious experience was along those lines. When I was seven, I was quite rebellious and even considered myself something of an atheist. My mother tried to send me to Sunday School that summer, and I went, but eventually came to the conclusion that it was all fairy tales. I told my mother this, and she burst into tears, and finally let me leave the program.
    Later that year, around my eighth birthday in December, I was playing with my boats in the bathtub upstairs one afternoon while my mother was loudly playing Christmas carols downstairs. Suddenly I stopped everything I was doing and felt a power electric energy at the base of my spine, rising up. It made me sit up straight, and it rose up slowly through my body, as if I were lighting up like a Christmas tree. I had no idea what it was, but it was not threatening, and I didn’t feel at all scared. There was a tremendous emotion of love associated with it in fact. When this energy reached my head, I had a sudden explosive vision of Jesus that completely overwhelmed me, and seemed to send me into another world. The sudden certainty arose that I had been alive in the time of Jesus, that I had seen him, heard him talk, even walked and talked with him. The feeling was of a pervasive and universal love transcending all experience. And there was absolutely nothing in doubt about this at all. The memories were clearer and more certain than those of yesterday.
    At the time, I had no concept of reincarnation. It wasn’t something I had ever even heard of. My parents had no such beliefs, nor did anyone I knew of. And the experience itself didn’t suddenly give me some sort of extensive knowledge of reincarnation, it was just an unmistakable experience of knowing that Jesus was a real person that I had known in the physical body, and not a fairy tale at all.
    It wasn’t until at least several years later when I heard about reincarnation that I realized how such a memory could have come about, and that it made sense within that structure of past lives. It also made me appreciate the spiritual reality of Jesus in the most direct and personal way. So oddly enough, for me reincarnation is a primary aspect of my own spiritual relationship with Jesus, and not some secondary speculation. But I can understand why many who have not had such direct experience would tend to be skeptical and lacking faith in the matter. So I would certainly not expect anyone else to believe in such things without having either personal experience of them, or extensive knowledge of these sorts of things. I also understand that none of these memories or experiences can constitute complete scientific “proof” of reincarnation, but are merely additional evidence to consider.

  265. Church Lady

    The Tradition doesn’t “miss” reincarnation. It excludes it. Reincarnation is not necessary because God is merciful and generous. He gives everyone conceived what is necessary to achieve their destiny in one life–and generously. He goes to the greatest lengths to make sure that anyone can get to heaven, even the worst sinner.
    While I agree with your most of this, I don’t see how that makes reincarnation unnecessary or to be excluded from Christian belief. Why cannot it be seen as a gift of an all-loving God whose patience with us is infinite. I don’t consider this lifetime to be a punishment or curse, so why should I see multiple lifetimes in that light? If one lifetime is a gift of God, why can’t many lifetimes also be a gift? And if God gives us everything we need, why can’t reincarnation be a part of that? You haven’t made a single argument for why that should be the case.
    I really don’t see how one lifetime is enough. Just take all the children who die young, or who are born into other religions and cultures, or who were born before Jesus, or who just don’t seem to get it? Or fertilized eggs that don’t implant, or miscarriages, etc. It seems absurd that this would be their one and only chance at salvation. All I hear from you in response is hand-waving about purgatory, as if somehow that’s going to fix all this. I really don’t see how it does, even in a purely speculative manner.
    And it doesn’t explain why some people seem to be born with a much higher degree of spiritual and human maturity than others. Why don’t we all start off the same? Why are some people, even from childhood, a mess, or even evil? While others are good and even saintly? It sure seems to me that we are not blank slates, but have some sort of prior history we each have to contend with. Impressions left by past lifetimes, it sure looks like. But maybe there’s some other, better explanation. I just don’t see what it is.

  266. Church Lady

    As for your sinners who refuse God, well, I agree that some of them, maybe even all of them, have their moments of loving embrace and grace. And of course we all have not just our moments of refusal, but a whole lifetime in which our acceptance of God’s grace is at best partial or just mediocre. That’s one of the reasons reincarnation makes so much sense to me. It accounts for the simple fact that people move slowly in response to grace. Very, very few of us respond as genuine saints do. The process seems to require much more time than one lifetime can offer, except perhaps in the most advanced of contemplatives. And how did they get to be that advanced, other than through practice over many lifetimes? I don’t see a better explanation, but I’m open to one if you can offer it.

  267. Robert Gotcher

    “I don’t consider this lifetime to be a punishment or curse, so why should I see multiple lifetimes in that light? If one lifetime is a gift of God, why can’t many lifetimes also be a gift? And if God gives us everything we need, why can’t reincarnation be a part of that? You haven’t made a single argument for why that should be the case.”
    It may not be a curse, but eternal life in communion with God is a lot better. Might as well get to it sooner than later. The idea that it is a blessing to not have to go through life again and again rests on how much better what we are to get in the end is. God doesn’t want us to have to wait any longer than we have to.
    Whatever spiritual advancement anyone has in this life is nothing compared to what we will all be like when we finally see God face to face. Any spiritual “adept” in this life is an infant in relation to the life to come.
    God offers mercy to every single human being ever conceived.

  268. Robert Gotcher

    The point about purgatory is that it is better than any life one can have on earth, so is already a beginning of beatitude. It is a sweet purification unlike the greatest purgative experience a mystic has on earth.

  269. Church Lady

    It may not be a curse, but eternal life in communion with God is a lot better. Might as well get to it sooner than later.
    I suppose the first question is, how do you know this?
    But putting that aside, the question of time can’t be so blithely dismissed. Clearly, we are indeed taking our sweet time about it. Of course it would be best if we simply zipped into heaven instantly, but since we don’t, it suggests our life on earth here is a necessary time in which we learn something important, such as ceasing to sin (which means ceasing to turn away from God), and instead turning more and more towards God. That seems to take time, and many lessons along the way, not just from reading books, but from experience itself. It doesn’t seem to me that most people get very far in one lifetime, though I think you can make a good argument that they do get further along that path to heaven.
    We can of course commune with God right now, but I think you are right that the experience is still only a fraction of what heaven is. So we have to practice communion in our lives, more and more deeply, progressively in other words. I think we agree on that? We may only disagree on the time-scale of how long it takes to fully release our sinful tendencies.
    I wouldn’t discount mystical experience of God so readily either, as being inferior somehow, or lacking “face to face” intimacy. Again, how would you know?
    As to purgatory, my interpretation of that is that it corresponds to the time in between lives, which from all reports are indeed far better and more “heavenly” than life on earth. But also, that life on earth serves and even greater purgative purpose than such subtle experience, which is why we keep coming back. Not to lengthen the process, but actually to quicken it. Life on earth is indeed quite difficult, but the basic sense is “no pain, no gain”, and that incarnation deepens our ability to turn to God precisely because it involves such an intensification of our sinfulness and its many temptations. So even our sufferings here are a form of grace, and we can come to recognize that if we are sensitive and turn to God in the midst of them.

  270. Sounding pretty orthodox there, CL. 🙂

  271. Robert Gotcher

    I’m not arguing that reincarnation is not true. I am arguing that it is not compatible with the Christian faith. How I know is that the sources of Christian Revelation (scripture, tradition, magisterium) reject it. If one is a sola scriptura Christian, which I’m not, one would probably argue that Scripture doesn’t support or allow reincarnation, but since I’m not a sola scripture Christian, I don’t know how to argue that way. You may not accept that authority, but that doesn’t change what the authority says. Nor does the fact that some Christians believe in reincarnation change the Tradition.
    The dogmatic structure of Christianity doesn’t allow for it on the basis of the understanding of God, man, and their relation, not to mention the understanding of the meaning of life on earth. The meaning of life on earth is not to attain spiritual perfection. It is really simple–the meaning of life in this world is to love God and neighbor. Once you’ve got past that hurdle (with God’s help), any other perfection you need to be at peace in heaven is taken care of either before or after death, depending on how far you’ve gotten at death.
    As for the mystics, the Christian mystical tradition is unanimous, from St. Paul on, that the deepest mystical union is nothing compared to the life to come. In fact, many Christian mystics who have reached the height of union also experience pain and distress because they know how much of a pittance their experience really is compared to what awaits them when their love is consummated in the life to come.
    As for purgatory, it may be “better,” as I’ve said, but it is no less purgative. In fact, it is probably more purely and effectively purgative, which means you will spend less “time” (and I use the word advisedly) getting to your final destination than you would in many lives on earth. Once again, God is merciful.

  272. Today is the feast day of St. Thomas, the Apostle, the first Christian empiricist. So, happy feast day to you, Church Lady!
    AMDG

  273. That’s brilliant. And I’ve always felt a whole lot of sympathy for Thomas.

  274. Well you know, “Let us go down to Jerusalem and die with him.” Pretty good guy.
    AMDG

  275. I didn’t really feel that much sympathy with that part. 🙂

  276. It seems that even Thomas didn’t quite see it though to the end.
    AMDG

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