Trump Vs. Conservatives (and Conservatism)

Sometimes, in an effort to distinguish myself from the likes of Sean Hannity, I describe myself as "conservative but not right-wing." It's not a hard and fast distinction, of course, and it's not easy to articulate, but it's being pretty clearly illustrated by reactions to the Trump campaign. It's been a week or so now, so I'm late in commenting on this, but, as you may have heard, National Review published a cover story making the argument against Trump which includes contributions by a number of fairly well-known names on the right, both the religious (Russell Moore, R.R. Reno) and non-religious (libertarian David Boaz). There is an editorial summary of the case, "Against Trump", which is probably all you need to read unless you're extremely interested. But the whole story is online, too: "Conservatives Against Trump".

My favorite political blogger, Neo-neocon, has also had a lot to say about Trump; here's just one post. One reason she's my favorite is that she's very careful about researching everything she writes about, and, not surprisingly, the more she's learned about Trump, the more alarmed she is. (She was alarmed about Obama in 2008, too, and she was right about him.)

I think I'm like a lot of conservatives in that I just can't quite believe this is happening. I can't believe he's gotten this far. I can't believe he'll get the nomination. I can't believe he could win. Most of all, I can't believe that people who consider themselves conservative are supporting him. Whatever he may be, he is not a conservative in any remotely plausible sense of the word. We all know that "conservative" is in many ways inaccurate as a description of American conservatism. But I can't see that it has any application at all to Trump. 

Why, then, do so many people on the right support him? There is generally at least some connection between "right-wing" and "conservative". It's a species of populism, yes, but much more a rightist than a leftist sort. It's apparently driven by anger. The conventional, i.e. the liberal, response to this is to sneer at the angry people–they're just racists whose evil grip on society has been loosened, etc. etc. ad nauseam. Where non-white anger is concerned, liberals insist on looking for root causes. To do so in this case doesn't require a lot of digging. As someone put it a while back, in a quotation I haven't been able to find again, the American people are governed by an elite which despises them. The anger tends to focus on immigration, and with some reason, because it is here that the ruling class has shown again and again that it is indifferent to the effects of immigration on working-class and poor Americans. The best analysis I've seen of the syndrome is by William Voegeli at the Claremont Review of Books: "The Reason I'm Anti-Anti-Trump." 

Demagoguery flourishes when democracy falters. A disreputable, irresponsible figure like Donald Trump gets a hearing when the reputable, responsible people in charge of things turn out to be self-satisfied and self-deluded. The best way to fortify Trump’s presidential campaign is to insist his followers’ grievances are simply illegitimate, bigoted, and ignorant. The best way to defeat it is to argue that their justified demands for competent, serious governance deserve a statesman, not a showman.

On a deeper level, I think there's something more happening. The American republic is in decline in many ways, including in its character as a republic. I've often thought that monarchy is the most natural form of government, and there's certainly some warrant in history for believing that any form of self-government by the governed is a fragile business. Among other things Trump's candidacy is a personality cult. His supporters don't apparently care that much about what he actually believes; they just think he is a tough guy who will stand up to their enemies. There is certainly no sense that he cares about the constitutional order as such, and this doesn't seem to bother his supporters. He wants power, and they want him to have it, because they think he will exercise it in the way they want. It doesn't take much imagination to see how that could go wrong. You don't even have to be a pessimist.

This is easy for people on the left to see. What is not so easy for them is to see is that much the same could be said of them and President Obama, as with Clinton before him. The left in fact seems more susceptible to adulation of a president or a presidential candidate as a personality than the right–Kennedy, Clinton, and Obama (and arguably Carter), and currently Bernie Sanders, for the former, only Reagan for the latter, as far as I can recall. The difference in personality between Obama and Trump is great, but both they and their followers have in common an impatience with democratic processes: "We can't wait for Congress to do its job, so where they won't act, I will." The linked story is only one of a number of instances in which Obama has said something similar. Never mind that the Constitution prescribes a system in which the legislature makes laws and the executive implements them. That doesn't matter when the progressive cause is being thwarted. It will matter when an anti-progressive autocrat proceeds in similar fashion, but it may already be too late to stop the trend.

***

Actually I'm still not 100% convinced that Trump is not part of a scheme to elect a Democrat. 


147 responses to “Trump Vs. Conservatives (and Conservatism)”

  1. I just can’t even let myself think about this too much. You know how when they are advertising the news, they always say, “Dadadadadadadad–you’ll be amazed!” I always think, “No, I won’t. Nothing could amaze me or surprise me anymore.” Well, this amazes me and distress me for several different reasons. I’m just glad that neither you nor my husband plan to vote for Trump because that means I don’t have to wall myself up in a small room on the side of the church until I die.
    AMDG

  2. I heard an interview on MS Public Radio this evening of an evangelical pastor who has a call-in radio show and who is appalled that so many of his listeners are so excited about Trump. Things would happen and he would think that this certainly would be the thing to change their minds, but nothing has.
    AMDG

  3. It amazes me, for sure. I don’t seem to be able to say anything about it without including something variant of “I can’t believe this is happening.” Neo-neocon has remarked several times about that phenomenon you mention–you keep thinking “ok, this will finish him” and it keeps not mattering. She has a good post today trying to classify his various supporters.
    The idea that there are activists on the left who are pushing him is actually plausible. Not that that’s the only thing or even the biggest thing, but it certainly seems to be in their interests. As Neo has pointed out over and over, and which actual Trump supporters seem oblivious to, Trump loses consistently when polls compare his support to Hillary’s. In fact he does no better than a couple of other Republicans.
    I’m happy that I can help save you from that horrible death, by the way.

  4. The support from evangelicals is completely bizarre.

  5. I wish I had time to read Neo’s blog, because it is so good and really the only political blog I can stomach, but I just don’t have time. I’m kind of halfway afraid that if I do start reading it again, I will never leave the computer.
    AMDG

  6. I realized the other day that without really having decided it consciously I’ve cut down my online time by cutting down on my participation in online socializing, i.e. blog comments and Facebook. Frequently on the latter I’ll start to make a comment, then think “If I say that it might start a conversation and then I’ll feel obliged to continue it,” and refrain.

  7. I just don’t read blogs anymore except this one and Craig’s, and nothing I say on Facebook is substantial enough to start a conversation.
    AMDG

  8. I think the world is getting more crazy by the day or hour. The support for Trump is mind-boggling, but so is almost everything else.
    Half the time I laugh my head off and reach for the popcorn and my piña colada.
    “Actually I’m still not 100% convinced that Trump is not part of a scheme to elect a Democrat.”
    Yep.
    “The American republic is in decline in many ways, including in its character as a republic. I’ve often thought that monarchy is the most natural form of government, and there’s certainly some warrant in history for believing that any form of self-government by the governed is a fragile business. Among other things Trump’s candidacy is a personality cult. His supporters don’t apparently care that much about what he actually believes; they just think he is a tough guy who will stand up to their enemies. There is certainly no sense that he cares about the constitutional order as such, and this doesn’t seem to bother his supporters. He wants power, and they want him to have it, because they think he will exercise it in the way they want. It doesn’t take much imagination to see how that could go wrong. You don’t even have to be a pessimist.”
    I agree.

  9. “popcorn and my piña colada” That sounds really good.
    Janet, I read yours, Craig’s, and Neo’s regularly, plus NRO’s The Corner, which technically is a blog, too. Can’t think of any others I read regularly. There might be some at Patheos that I would read fairly often if the site was not so unpleasant–slow and cluttered. It used to crash or hang Chrome regularly, which I think was mostly related to Flash. I turned that off and that stopped the crashes. But it’s still unpleasant.

  10. Do you know how to make a piña colada?
    Somehow, I clicked something and now I get a notice on Facebook of every post on Patheos. I need to fix that. Anyway, sometimes I click on one of those and I almost always end up irritated. Maybe I’m just irritable.
    AMDG

  11. I am, at least where Patheos is concerned. But then I had good reason. Over and over again I would see a link to something on Patheos that looked interesting, click on it, then spend the next 5 or 10 minutes trying to get control of my computer back. Granted, it was an old computer running Windows XP on 1gb of RAM, but, dang it, that should be adequate for web browsing. And mostly it is. I think Patheos has been improved–and I’ve turned off Flash on all my machines–but it’s still just not pleasant reading.
    I sort of think I may have made a pina colada once, but if I did it was a long time ago. I’m sure Google would give you numerous recipes in a few seconds.

  12. I really like NeoCon’s take on Trump. The only thing I disagree with is the idea that some Democrats are deliberately engineering a Trump victory. I just don’t think people conspire in that way.
    I do think that the Media adores Trump and has propelled him to his current fame. This is part of the absurdity of ‘conservatives’ saying that Trump is ‘anti-media’. No he is not, he’s a bloody media celebrity and nothing else!
    There are people where I am working who support Trump. I cannot believe that people who call themselves conservatives could be supporting Trump. To me, they are not conservatives, they are what I would call ‘reactionaries’. Maybe what I mean by reactionaries is what you mean by right wing.
    I don’t totally disagree with the idea that Trump’s popularity is due to ‘the establishment’ Republicans and Democrats ignoring common people’s fears about immigration.
    But I do think there is a self-serving element to it, as there is in all media commentary on Trump. It seems to me that Trump is to extent serving as a blank canvas for journalists to talk about their own issues and ideas. And journalists want to say ‘I’m against Trump … BUT … if only people had listened to me about X, Y, or Z there would be no Trumpism.’ And one can fill in X, Y, or Z as one likes. Some are filling it in with immigration. It may not be totally false, ie some Trumpers may think its a great idea to put up a wall to stop the Mexicans coming, keep the Muslims out, or whatever. But I think part of this is the journalist’s joy in being able to use Trump to write about their own issues.
    To me, the ‘I’m against Trump But, if only they had listened to me about X there would be no Trumpers’ line is so self-serving that I’m inclined to say, in contradiction, that Trumpism is meaningless. To say that Trumpism is meaningless is to say that it does not tell us anything new about modern America at all. There have always been about 10 per cent of the population who do not take any kind of long term view when they give their support to projects. This 10 percent is currently supporting Trump.
    I would not defend this idea that Trumpism is meaningless with my last dying breath. It’s not my last ditch. Maybe there is some meaning in it. I would not get into a long debate about it. Its more like a hypothesis I could easily entertain than an idea to which I’m absolutely committed.
    Its part of a journalist’s job to explain current events. And a blogger’s job. But some events may have no special explanation.
    The only explanation I would find acceptable is that ‘we’ve got to the stage where almost anyone with the money could run for president’. Peggy Noonan has like most journalists been wrong about all this for a long time – she predicted Trump would fade in August, September, October… But a few months back, she seemed to me to get it right when she said, ‘you aint seen nothing yet. Next time it will be a celebrity rapper.’

  13. I am also curious what you think about Ted Cruz, Mac. I’ll be voting for Bernie Sanders in the primary. 🙂
    On another note, as we approach the countdown to Mac’s all time favorite hymn, “Ashes”, I must put in a vote for silliest hymn ever written which has been in my head every since I left Mass yesterday morning, “Go Make a Difference”!
    Although I then go home and say that to everyone, and even put it in someone’s FB feed for fun. Let’s all go make a difference today folks!

  14. “Reactionary” is a pretty big part of what I mean in trying to separate right-wing, or merely right-wing, from conservative.
    I’m not serious when I wonder whether Trump’s candidacy is actually Democratic conspiracy. But the idea that Democrats are participating in pumping it up is not far-fetched at all. Political activists do that sort of thing all the time, like voting (where it’s legal) in the primary of the other party for the candidate you think your candidate can beat.
    There’s a saying among astrologers, presumably from some ancient source, that “the stars incline but they do not compel.” I think something like that is true of the media. They have a lot of influence but they can’t create and sustain something like Trump’s candidacy if there’s not something real driving it. They’ve definitely pumped up the whole phenomenon, but that alone wouldn’t keep it going and growing for this long. I guess you could say media pumping is a necessary but not sufficient condition.
    So I disagree with the idea that Trumpism is meaningless. The first time I really paid attention to it was startling. I’m still startled, actually. Back in the fall sometime he gave a speech here. It was originally supposed to be in some smallish venue but the interest was so great that they moved it to a football stadium. That would never have been needed for any other political candidate at that point. In the event he didn’t fill it, but it was still estimated to be anywhere from 20 to 30 thousand people. That kind of made me sit up and take notice. The speech was broadcast on local TV and I watched it. The speech itself was just a lot of disconnected bombast. But the audience was deliriously enthusiastic. That was when I knew something was going on.

  15. Stu, I don’t really have a clear opinion of Cruz at this point. I really haven’t paid all that much attention to the candidates so far. I resent the fact that the campaigning really never stops anymore. I’m about to start paying attention, but the only thing I can say very definitely about Cruz now is that he looks sneaky. 🙂 Principled conservatives seem to think he is a principled conservative.
    Agreed about “Go Make A Difference.” Funny you mention that, because although I haven’t heard it for a long time (praise God!) something made me think of it yesterday. That content-free “make a difference” business has always irked me. A bit like “change.” Well there’s good and bad change. George W. Bush made a difference, but I don’t think it was the kind of difference people who say “go make a difference” had in mind.

  16. Last night a character in DOWNTOWN ABBEY!! said she wanted to “make a difference.”

  17. It is easy to make fun of (and I am) but I think the general gist is helping people in need. Hard to argue against that.

  18. http://www.integratedcatholiclife.org/2011/02/go-make-a-difference/#.Vq9zHrIrKUk
    Heavy.
    Another favorite of mine…is it City of God where our tears are turned into dancing? I’m always thinking of people crying and then they become deliriously happy and begin dancing. Silly hymns are fun.
    Sorry to steer the discussion away from Trump, I don’t want to bruise his ego.

  19. You’re still watching DOWNTON ABBEY! 😉
    I figure I will start making a serious effort to find out more about the candidates when it gets closer to my primary and I know who is left to chose from.
    At this point I’m thinking there is a real chance that I may be unable to vote in November.
    AMDG

  20. If I had to guess I would say that Karen is watching Downton Abbey and Mac is sitting there with her wondering why they aren’t watching something more compelling.

  21. What a dreadful TV series, if you don’t mind me saying so. I saw it once at Christmas 2011, and thought it was dire, and my stepfather and I saw the final episode on TV in England this Christmas and could not believe that people willingly look at such dreck. They seemed all to be cardboard characters dressed up in 1920s costumes like clothes horses. No offence meant – I have good friends in America who like this series! I do not know any English people who watch it, DG.
    I really should not comment about American politics, because I simply do not understand the mechanisms. Some one explained to me last week about the difference between primaries and caucases, and also about the super delegates.
    I didn’t realize from that that one can actually enroll in the other lot’s party and vote for the candidate one guesses to be least likely to win. In that case, then yes of course Democrats must be enrolling and voting for Trump.
    There may be huge pro-Trump rallies. But that would fit in with Noonan’s point that now anyone can run for president. The reactionaries, or haters, or right-wingers or whatever one wants to call them have never had a candidate they liked before. They’ve been stuck with voting for Reagan or Bush. The haters have not had their own candidate for decades. So yes, they are pumped up to be able to vote for Trump.
    But this does not convince me that there are more reactionaries or right wingers than they were before, and thus that Trumpism tells us something new about American politics. All it says is that in this cycle the haters have finally got a candidate they can trust – to be hateful.

  22. It depends on the state you live in, Grumpy. Here in Alabama for instance I can go out and vote either as a Republican or Democrat. But in Florida (where I am from) you must register as a party and vote in that primary only. So if you were registered as an Independent in Florida you could only vote in the general election as opposed to the primaries, unless of course there were several Independents vying for the presidency. The differences in the ways states do things is part of the problem here with elections…in my opinion.

  23. Yes I was told every state does it differently. But I didn’t realize it had that outcome

  24. I think it’s a big mistake to write off the Trump supporters as haters. That might describe some significant number of them. But a lot of them are angry with good reason, and that’s the crucial thing. They loved Reagan, for instance (or would have–at this point we have to factor in a lot of people who were not adults in the Reagan period). I don’t think Trump could have gotten nearly this far with only some basic core of reactionaries supporting him.
    It’s not only on the right. Bernie Sanders is also riding a lot of anger. Seems funny because liberals have been in power now for 7 years, but a lot of them feel that Obama and the Congressional Democrats have failed them. Or if they don’t hold it against them, they nevertheless feel that The System is hopelessly corrupt and Sanders will somehow purify it. The rhetoric is different, obviously, and the goals are different, but the two have in common a deep sense that the system is not working in the interests of the people at large. The breadth and depth of this feeling is what is genuinely new.
    I haven’t read Noonan’s piece, but in my experience she tends to go with a very impressionistic, almost touchy-feely approach, that’s sometimes on target but sometimes not. If I remember correctly she was sort of mushy about Obama in 2008.

  25. To me, you say, once a person says ‘there’s a reason for the anger,’ they join the class of people who are saying ‘I’m against Trump, BUT if only people had done X, there would be no Trumpers.
    I don’t accept the ‘angry for a reason’ line of argument. It strikes me as simply self-serving.
    So we must agree to disagree.

  26. Yes, it seems so.
    I don’t see why my view is self-serving, though. I mean, any observation is self-serving in that one thinks it’s correct and advances reasons for thinking so. I’m not saying any one thing in particular is X. What’s the alternative to “angry for a reason”? Angry for no reason? Not angry? Just plain mean?

  27. But anyway, about Downton Abbey: the picture Stu paints of the Horton household is not totally off the mark. I probably wouldn’t be watching it if she didn’t want to. But I don’t actively dislike it, either. I think a lot of people recognize that it’s just fancy-dress soap opera. Taken as that, it’s ok. The acting is pretty good, allowing for the limits of the writing. Anachronisms like “make a difference” are only part of the problem, but a striking part. There’s a lot of entertaining visual spectacle.
    Grumpy, I think it’s actually pretty popular in the UK as well. Maybe not as much as here, where some people have that tendency to be gaga over upper-class British stuff.

  28. Marianne

    …a deep sense that the system is not working in the interests of the people at large. The breadth and depth of this feeling is what is genuinely new.
    Is that really the case? George Wallace got a lot of support in his presidential bid in the late 1960s. His message was at heart one against integration, but he also tapped into other frustrations among voters.

  29. I don’t accept the ‘angry for a reason’ line of argument. It strikes me as simply self-serving.
    Rod Dreher had something up the other day about people having “an inchoate sense” that something’s deeply wrong. People who support Trump, and to a lesser extent, Sanders, feel vaguely (but deeply) threatened by the way the country’s going. So they are, in fact, “angry for a reason,” even if they can’t quite put their finger on what it is.

  30. Some of my Dutch friends are wildly enthusiastic about Downton Abbey. I started watching series 1 on DVD to see what the fuss was about, and couldn’t stop till the end. I don’t feel any desire to find series 2 or 3 or whatever, but I thought the narrative hooks that keep you wanting to see how things turn out were quite effective. I wouldn’t disagree with Mac’s “fancy-dress soap opera”.
    Across the Western world, for a decade or more, large numbers of people of every shade of political sentiment have been expressing the feeling that existing institutions don’t impact on their lives except in negative ways. The solutions they turn to vary (and the reasons they feel the way they do may too) but it has seemed pretty clear to me that there’s a crisis of democracy comparable to that between the World Wars.

  31. I don’t think it’s as bad as that–at least I hope it’s not–but I think “comparable” is justified.
    I actually haven’t seen series 1 of Downton. My wife watched it, and planned to watch series 2, and that’s where I came in. There have been some really eye-rolling plot twists.

  32. Series 1 was the best. Series 2 was the worst. 2 was WW1, right? But Maggie Smith makes them all somewhat worthwhile.

  33. It depends on what you reason for being angry is, doesn’t it? If you are angry because government policies have made it impossible for you to have the bare necessities of life, or if people who don’t understand your culture at all are belittling it and trying to destroy it, or because the government is using your tax dollars for things which you think are gravely immoral or ridiculously wasteful, I would think those are good reasons. I’m not, by the way, saying that any particular candidates are good answers to those particular reasons, I’m just suggesting reasons that might be good.
    AMDG

  34. I’m not angry, and according to Mac I’m voting for one of the candidates that angry people vote for. I just happen to think he’s one of the few who is not deceitful, mean, or crazy.

  35. He didn’t say that it was the only reason that people vote for them.
    AMDG

  36. Right, Janet. Not that only angry people are voting for Sanders, but that a similar kind of anger can be seen in some of his supporters.
    “Not deceitful” is also one of the major reasons Trump supporters would give for supporting him. They think he’s a straight-up, tell-it-like-it-is guy who’s cutting through all the b.s. They would probably also say “not crazy”–he’s a hard-headed businessman, he doesn’t live in a fantasy world, etc. I don’t know about “not mean.:-)
    “Crazy” is also one of the charges that many on the right would make against Sanders. My point being that each side sees the other in somewhat similar terms.

  37. I thought I had posted this earlier. Fortunately (?) I had copied it:
    Quite right about Wallace, Marianne. Actually I thought about that but decided not to go into it. So, this (Trump etc.) is not new in relation to that, but it is if you’re just considering, say, the past 30 years or so.
    “threatened by the way the country’s going”. Yes, and also in a fairly direct way by the other side, the belief that the other political side is truly an enemy and will destroy the country if not defeated.
    That also was true when Wallace was running, although the left had much less power then and so on that side it was not so much “they’re destroying the country” as just “they’re evil.” It has been more or less true since the ’60s, really, but it ebbs and flows.

  38. Re Downton again, I can’t remember which series it was, but the most eye-rolling plot twist for me was the miracle recovery from paralysis. Sudden deaths were a bit overworked, too, but I gave the writers the benefit of the doubt and supposed it was the fault of the actors wanting out. Reportedly Lady Bellamy in Upstairs Downstairs, the DA of its day, was put on the Titanic because the actress wanted out, and she later regretted it, but it was too late because her character was at the bottom of the ocean. Though they could have concocted some kind of miracle, perhaps involving amnesia.

  39. I just seem to remember talk about jumping the shark and other negativity a long, long time ago.
    AMDG

  40. You may have heard it from me on the occasion of the miracle recovery.

  41. And Maggie Smith is definitely the most fun.

  42. Its exactly the Rod Dreher is, Chicken Little, democracy is doomed take away from ‘I’m against Trump but they did not do X like I tole them, so the end is nigh’ which makes me hypothesize that the Trump phenomenon is fairly meaningless. Its meaningless in relation to the kinds of meaning people want to draw out of it.

  43. I can just barely remember that there was a miracle recovery. Was it Lady Mary’s husband that recovered? If so, it didn’t do much good in the end.
    Maggie Smith is the best.
    AMDG

  44. Yes, it was Mary’s husband. Then he died (I guess there’s no real need to avoid spoilers here).

  45. Republicans turning out in force to turn Trump out

  46. So I see. I’m hoping the bubble is bursting.

  47. It may be that the people who are too smart to vote for Trump are too smart to waste their time on telephone polls.
    AMDG

  48. John Podhoretz at 10.45 last night, ‘So let’s face it, America has not yet gone batshit crazy.’
    When People act like they are going batshit crazy it gives journalists something to write about. It makes everyone feel deep as they explain how this would not be happening if only folks had followed their own preferred prescription. Rod Dreher is typical of this, but their name is legion. They helped to create the Trump bubble and they enjoyed it immensely. Because a Rubio win or a Clinton win, while unfortunate in the minds of some, does not have that hint of insanity which allows speculation as to the causes to run riot.

  49. I think that one can have a deep sense that something’s seriously wrong without necessarily being either insane or paranoid.
    (This of course does not mean that there are not some crazies and Chicken Littles among the “declinists.”)

  50. Right. Though Dreher is indeed a Chicken Little. It seems to be just his personality. I wouldn’t be surprised if he recognizes it.
    Just for the record, I didn’t say the American people were going batshit crazy, or that this would not be happening if only folks had followed my preferred prescription (I don’t have one, actually). There’s no contradiction between saying that the level of support Trump has attracted is significant, and that the media helped to inflate it.

  51. I did not say you said they were crazy.

  52. I wasn’t sure whether you were including me in your criticism of the punditry or not.

  53. I do not think democracy can be in a state of compleat collapse when tens of thousands of people turned out to vote against Trump
    http://thefederalist.com/2016/02/02/iowa-caucus-the-anybody-but-trump-vote/#.VrDScuJnB3g.facebook

  54. I don’t think it’s in a state of complete collapse, or anywhere near that. I think it’s in a state of decline. Big difference. But in any case it is encouraging that Trump didn’t win, and if that guy you link to is right, that so many people were motivated to vote against Trump.

  55. I don’t have much of an opinion about American politics, but it does seem to me that psychopaths will be drawn to politics anyhow and at the moment I can’t see any real statesmen/women.
    There are people in my street I’d rather see in office.

  56. As for Downton Abbey, I call it “frock drama” and when I say “drama” I mean “soap opera.” I haven’t even started watching season 6 yet, but since I have the first four seasons on DVD I will probably buy seasons 5 and 6 eventually.

  57. It does seem to me that the Rule of Law has taken a battering. Is that right?

  58. “Do you know how to make a piña colada?”
    No. I do know how to buy one! 🙂
    I enjoyed Stu’s discussion about “hymns” etc.
    Aren’t Trump supporters known as Trumpkins?

  59. Trumpkins. It makes all the craziness almost worth it.
    AMDG

  60. Most of all, I can’t believe that people who consider themselves conservative are supporting him. Whatever he may be, he is not a conservative in any remotely plausible sense of the word.
    This is what makes the whole Trump clown show so weird and distressing. Several months ago I did some research and found that:
    1) Trump was a registered Democrat from 2001 to 2008. That period includes the heyday of Pelosi, Reid and the rise of Obama, which is hardly conservative territory.
    2) Trump gave about $314K in donations to progressive Democrats/causes during 1989 – 2010, including donations to: Ms Clinton, The Clinton Foundation, $50K to key Dems in 2006 (when Democrats took control of both houses), Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, Harry Reid, Charles Rangel, Rahm Emanuel’s Chicago mayoral race and more.

    Admittedly, the $314K to Dems was mostly offset by total donations of about $290K to Republicans during this period, but such is not the behavior of a principled conservative. This is the pattern one sees from large corporations that have no political principles whatsoever (other than the bottom line), and are just looking to buy favors and grease the wheels, whoever gets elected.

    From the above, I concluded Mr Trump has no solid principles at all–other than his belief in Donald Trump–and voting for him is at best a spin of the roulette wheel: you have no idea what he’ll do if elected.
    His behavior since then has only confirmed my conclusion (and worsened it, since he’s shown a serious nasty streak). His pandering to Iowa by voicing support for ethanol subsidies (a huge waste) is just one example. He rarely explains his positions other than to assert that things will be great because Trump the Magnificent “gets things done.” Since his vague positions jump all over the map, exactly what he’ll “get done” is anybody’s guess.

  61. Trumpkins is very funny indeed.
    I once read an article in the Spectator which said that the kind of person who goes into politics is the kid who wanted to be a prefect (or you would say, class officer, or class representative) at school. That made so much sense that I have never again got all that much worked up about politicians.

  62. Admittedly, the $314K to Dems was mostly offset by total donations of about $290K to Republicans during this period, but such is not the behavior of a principled conservative.
    No, he’s a businessman, for whom politicians are fungible.

  63. but it does seem to me that psychopaths will be drawn to politics anyhow and at the moment I can’t see any real statesmen/women.
    Psychopaths? No. Real psychopaths are in prison. Of sociopaths, there are some (the Hot Springs Lounge Lizard). What’s distressing about the Clinton phenomenon is that there is not much resistance to it for the right reasons. The Sanders bots do resist, but their justifications do not call crucial aspects of their worldview into questions, which an acknowledgement of the Clintons’ criminality would. The Sanders partisans in my family do not like to hear HRC described in blunt terms.
    Now run down the list: the Clintons are atypical. John Edwards might be in their league in some respects, and Edward Kennedy. George Wallace did some things in his mundane life which were just stupefying. And, of course, you had Lyndon Johnson and John Kennedy.

  64. John Podhoretz is a capable book reviewer, a trade at which few people ever made a living and almost no one can today. So, he’s long traded in topical commentary (and assisted in employment by family connections), a trade at which he’s never been much good (and in which few people can make a living anymore). Rod Dreher attempted to get out of journalism by taking a job with the Templeton Foundation, and ended up at the end of it writing for an opinion magazine with a circulation less than one-tenth of that of the publication he’d resigned from in 2002. What do these people know? How to write in complete sentences and turn in copy on time. You’re just about as well off consulting your pal Morty.
    One progenitor of these problems is a train-wreck of institutional defects, about which almost no one seems concerned.

  65. Though Dreher is indeed a Chicken Little. It seems to be just his personality. I wouldn’t be surprised if he recognizes it.
    I think more his character. The man has long seemed to be the sum of his issues.

  66. But in any case it is encouraging that Trump didn’t win,
    You’re alternatives are a pair of tyro members of Congress whose executive experience approaches nil. Both are lawyers as well. One of them is less intelligent and has less integrity than the other. The other hasn’t the best people skills. If you run the distance between Barack Obama and Jimmy Carter, you’ll encounter these two at milestones along the way. Lots to be not happy about.

  67. The difference in personality between Obama and Trump is great, but both they and their followers have in common an impatience with democratic processes: “We can’t wait for Congress to do its job, so where they won’t act, I will.”
    IMHO, the key trait shared by both is their pathological narcissism. Obama cloaks his narcissism in leftist ideology. Lacking any fixed set of higher “principles,” Trump has no pretense to cover his self-absorption and is therefore simply a pure narcissist.

  68. That’s very much the diagnosis of Neo-neocon regarding both. I’m never quite sure whether I agree because “narcissism” remains a somewhat vague term to me.
    “Lots to be not happy about.”
    Don’t worry, I’m in no danger of succumbing to optimism.
    Yes, “Trumpkin” is brilliant.

  69. Lacking any fixed set of higher “principles,” Trump has no pretense to cover his self-absorption and is therefore simply a pure narcissist.
    Trump is a highly accomplished individual. Obama is the most weirdly vapid character to occupy an obtrusive executive position in my lifetime. He has been like that at least since his late 20s. I doubt they’re all that similar.

  70. 1) Trump was a registered Democrat from 2001 to 2008.
    He was a registered Republican from 1969 until at least 1985.

  71. “narcissism” remains a somewhat vague term to me.
    The problem is that it’s both a clinical term of art and a literary allusion. It’s hard to differentiate the two in everyday speech. Using the modifier ‘pathological’ makes it sound like a clinical judgment rather than an observer’s opinion. The term I’d use for Trump would be ‘exhibitionistic’. Obama seems more a stew of social bigotry, petty resentments and general superficiality.

  72. I disagree that Trump is “highly accomplished” in any way that would be good for the country if he were president.

  73. I didn’t notice that Art Deco gave any evidence at all that John Podhoretz is not a good political analyst. As for the fact that his father was a journalist, very many people go into the same profession or an analogous profession to their parents – the children of doctors become doctors or vets, the children of musicians become musicians, professor’s children become professors or teachers. It does not make the second generation any worse at their trade to have parents who practiced it. Rather the reverse – they are taught it in many implicit ways throughout their childhood.
    As for the quotation from John Podhoretz that I gave, it simply sums up what happened in Iowa last night better than anything that Art Deco, for example, has said. It is also very amusing which is often a virtue, though not a virtue which often attaches to Art Deco’s posts.
    As for the word ‘narcissist’ like Maclin I tend to zone out when I hear it because I don’t know what it means precisely. I am not sure precisely what narcissism is, or how it is different from extreme egotism or extreme selfishness.
    On the other hand, the author of this piece describes Trump as a narcissist after telling a story in which Trump seats his wife and his mistress at the same dinner table together. Here I can see what narcissism means, because of the illustration
    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/donald-trump/12132320/Donald-Trump-is-the-Mussolini-of-America-with-double-the-vulgarity.html

  74. I just noticed that I had missed a couple of comments from around 2:50. Re Gary’s long one about Trump’s giving history etc.: Yes, that’s a pretty good summary of the kind of thing anti-Trump conservatives have pointed out over and over. Neo-neocon has gone into a whole lot of detail about it and has said things very much like this: “Mr Trump has no solid principles at all–other than his belief in Donald Trump–and voting for him is at best a spin of the roulette wheel: you have no idea what he’ll do if elected.”
    Re Grumpy on the kind people who want to be politicians: it’s true, and they bring with them an even worse type, the sort of people who thrive on organizational manipulation and ever more complex rules and regulations.

  75. I guess narcissism is distinguished from egotism alone in that it emphasizes one’s admiration of oneself and concern for one’s image. An egotist might be content just to get his own way; a narcissist wants to get his own way and also to be admired and respected and maybe feared.
    For what it’s worth, here’s a Wikipedia article on narcissistic personality disorder. It still sounds like a species of egotism.

  76. Is that why we dislike Politicians and their followers?

  77. Somebody has referred to them as “the people who never want the meeting to end.” Which sounds not so much like the politicians themselves as the ones who just generally want to attach themselves to government and make rules that only they can navigate.

  78. Dolores Umbridges?

  79. Ha! Not necessarily malicious, but similarly adept.

  80. “the people who never want the meeting to end.”
    That paragraph and your remark about to Grumpy about the same are just so right on. Thankfully, we never have meetings here–even when we need them. 😉
    AMDG

  81. I disagree that Trump is “highly accomplished” in any way that would be good for the country if he were president.
    I’m not sure why developing commercial property, running hotels and casinos, and producing entertainment programs is ‘bad for the country’ in and of itself. Trump isn’t producing pornography; The Apprentice is fairly harmless eye candy, even when Melissa Rivers has to be bleeped. Casinos can be troublesome for about the same reason taverns are: some of their clientele lack the requisite self-control. His architecture isn’t to my taste, but very little built since 1930 is.

  82. I didn’t notice that Art Deco gave any evidence at all that John Podhoretz is not a good political analyst.
    No, I did not offer you a text wall with samples drawn from Mr. Podhoretz 29 years as an opinion writer and accompanying annotations. He’s a lapsed student of literature who has worked in journalism all his adult life. You can rummage through his columns for The New York Post and National Review if you care to; he’s second rate as a columnist and has no particular expertise on which he can draw.
    As for the fact that his father was a journalist, very many people go into the same profession or an analogous profession to their parents – the children of doctors become doctors or vets, the children of musicians become musicians, professor’s children become professors or teachers. It does not make the second generation any worse at their trade to have parents who practiced it. Rather the reverse – they are taught it in many implicit ways throughout their childhood.
    His father was a literary critic who took up political writing reluctantly. His father has composed a number of monographs on current affairs, none of them of much interest. Podhoretz, Sr. was also a capable editor. Commentary, once upon a time, was an engaging and provactive publication. I look at it at the library nowadays, but it’s generally meh when it’s not being stupid (e.g. the inane article about how Bob Hope was a loser as a comedian because he was a goy). It’s not surprising, given the economics of opinion journalism nowadays, that Commentary is out of gas. The Public Interest is defunct, The New Leader is defunct, Policy Review is defunct, The New Republic is a sad wreck, &c. The contributors to Commentary‘s blog number about a dozen. One (1) is in age younger than the median of the work force. The median age of the whole is about 55 and several contributors are past retirement age. Commentary is also fairly in-bred. The editor from 1960 to 1995 worked there for some years previous; the editor from 1995 to 2009 was a staff assistant to his predecessor who was hired in 1966 and spent his entire adult work life there’ and the editor since 2009 is the son of his predecessor once removed.
    It’s very unusual for a membership organization to spin off its house publication and turn it over to an eleemosynary controlled by the family of one of its quondam employees. Unless you take him into partnership, you cannot get your son a job as a physician. The characteristics of medical practice in many areas hardly allows that, as small group practices are disappearing. The father-son pair of doctors in my family are in different cities and in different specialties. The one prominent example I can think of of a father-son pair in academe consisted of Erich Goldhagen and his repellent son. Didn’t matter. Harvard did hire Goldhagen Jr. and then spit him out again several years later, as they generally do to their assistant professors; he has been without an academic post for a dozen years now.
    There’s a reason he was called ‘John P. Normanson’ at The New York Post.

  83. As for the quotation from John Podhoretz that I gave, it simply sums up what happened in Iowa last night better than anything that Art Deco,
    Commentary is edited by advocates of open borders (so long as the borders in question are not those of Israel). That they’re hostile to Trump is not surprising. That they call Trump’s supporters ‘batshit crazy’ is graceless and stupid (and rather provides some of the evidence you asked for that Podhoretz is a lousy student of current affairs and a wretched stylist to boot).

  84. That’s the second time in as many days I’ve seen Trump described (stupidly) as an analogue to an inter-war fascist dictator. The other progenitor was a business professor who should stop pretending the liberal education he received was worth jack.
    I was well acquainted with a man whose wife and mistress had known each other socially (bowling league). No, that man was not a narcissist; he just had a talent for putting himself in awkward situations. We have a lot of divorces in this country. You think the first wife never meets the second wife?

  85. The Podhoretz remark doesn’t strike me as important enough to warrant a lot of commentary, either on the remark or the man himself. I think I know what he meant.
    Maybe I missed something, but I don’t think anyone in this discussion described Trump as a fascist dictator. Paul said this (2/1, 2:12pm):
    “The solutions they turn to vary (and the reasons they feel the way they do may too) but it has seemed pretty clear to me that there’s a crisis of democracy comparable to that between the World Wars.”
    I think that’s true. “comparable”, not “identical.”

  86. I don’t know about y’all but I’m ready for a movie. 😉
    AMDG

  87. Maybe I missed something, but I don’t think anyone in this discussion described Trump as a fascist dictator. Paul said this (2/1, 2:12pm):
    The link he posted was to an article in the Daily Telegraph. See 02/02/2016 at 07:43 PM.

  88. Oh yeah. But that was talking about his personality, wasn’t it? No time to re-read it now. I don’t think that’s off the mark.
    In a couple of hours, Janet.

  89. I wasn’t nagging; I was just saying I’m ready to move on. 😉
    AMDG

  90. Marianne

    Commentary is edited by advocates of open borders (so long as the borders in question are not those of Israel).
    I read my allotment of free Commentary articles every month and I don’t recall any of the writers there espousing open borders. They do, though, oppose Trump’s, or any politician’s, appeal to nativism.

  91. “nativism”–that’s one of the words I was looking for in my right-wing-vs.-conservative notion.

  92. I didn’t take it as nagging, Janet.

  93. I read my allotment of free Commentary articles every month and I don’t recall any of the writers there espousing open borders. They do, though, oppose Trump’s, or any politician’s, appeal to nativism.
    You need to read more carefully, particularly the online remarks of Jonathan Tobin and Jennifer Rubin (a Commentary veteran, now at the post). And ‘nativist’ is a nonsense term, made use of by open borders advocates to avoid discussion and impugn the motives of others (though condescension is more in keeping with Tobin and Rubin’s usual shtick).

  94. It’s a perfectly good word, whether or not its use by those writers is appropriate.

  95. It’s a perfectly good word,
    Oh? No looking. Come up with a definition; then ask why it’s useful in this context.

  96. You really should change your tone. It’s very off-putting and causes people just to stop responding.

  97. I subscribe to Commentary and have never seen an article in it advocating open borders.

  98. On a point of information, I have to correct Art Deco’s impression that I have ever linked to a story in the Daily Telegraph on this blog. Nor would I be inclined to bring Fascism in except, at a pinch, as a contrast rather than a parallel. The widespread disillusionment with democracy is certainly comparable to that between the Wars, but the symptoms or solutions being offered as alternatives bear very little resemblance.

  99. It’s ironic that you admonish others that they “need to read more carefully”, Art Deco, as you’ve several times given evidence of ascribing views to people who do not hold them, comments to people who did not make them, and links to people who did not post them.

  100. Stop responding. Yes, that’s wise council.Any response, especially an acrimonious one is fuel for his fire.
    AMDG

  101. Not saying this is A.D., necessarily, but I have a couple friends who cannot get into these types of discussions without eventually descending to ad hominems. As a result I’ve learned to avoid certain topics.

  102. I have to correct Art Deco’s impression that I have ever linked to a story in the Daily Telegraph
    The link was posted by ‘Grumpy’. C’mon, this isn’t that difficult.

  103. I’d put more store by your ability to read between the lines if you could actually read what was on them – especially the ones you wrote yourself.
    But I’ll stop now before Janet tells me off again.

  104. Oh no, no, Paul. I wasn’t telling you off. I wouldn’t do that. I was commenting on Maclin’s earlier comment. Your comment just happened to come between.
    AMDG

  105. Did someone use the word “condescension”? Let me go look that up for a proper definition, or better yet I can ask Bill Clinton, he’s smart.

  106. “…a couple friends who cannot get into these types of discussions without eventually descending to ad hominems. As a result I’ve learned to avoid certain topics.”
    It doesn’t have to go as far as ad hominems. I’ve had to draw the line on those once or twice. But even short of that, I don’t want people to have to avoid any topics here, or to refrain from speaking because they don’t want to be snarled at. Art, if you’re still reading: you really come across as hostile and wanting to start a fight. If that’s the case, do it somewhere else. If not, please make an effort to be cordial. There’s no good reason why this discussion had to turn nasty.

  107. I am the blog’s Telegraph reader, as well as its resident theologian, and it was me who posted a link to an article by Andrew Roberts in the DT which in the title compares Trump to Mussolini.
    I am sorry Janet. I am the worst offender.

  108. Why are you apologizing to me?
    AMDG

  109. Sorry Janet!

  110. Well, maybe I should just issue a blanket forgiveness and we can move on. 😉
    Although I don’t think I need any apologies.
    AMDG

  111. I would like my forgiveness to be personal, not part of a blanket! >:

  112. Janet may need to give general absolution.
    Surely the main issue for those of us who are more on the conservative side of politics is that Trump doesn’t really represent conservative views. Do any of the candidates? I’m pretty worried about things in the world and the US right now. Nothing I’ve seen about the coming election makes me feel less so.
    Do the more liberal people here have any connection with a candidate? Does he/she fairly well represent your views? I’m interested to know.

  113. Sorry, Stu. You didn’t apologize when it was in fashion, so you’ll have to make do with general absolution.
    AMDG

  114. Sorry, folks, I’ve been away from the computer all afternoon. Grumpy, you certainly don’t need to apologize for the DT link. There was nothing offensive about it. Btw I read the Telegraph sometimes, too.
    Louise, I think most of the Republican candidates have conservative moral views. How that works out in their policies I can’t really say. As I may or may not have mentioned earlier, I don’t make much effort to form a definite opinion this early in the race.
    I did run across this interesting piece about Marco Rubio the other day:
    http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/01/marco-rubios-crisis-of-faith-213553

  115. This early? It feels like it’s been going for forever!

  116. I hope I don’t need to point out to anyone here that even though Janet has given general absolution, you are obliged to email her privately to confess as soon as you can. 🙂

  117. Louise, You are going to find out that “forever” can be a lot longer than you imagine.
    AMDG

  118. Don,
    I can’t imagine why someone who I don’t even know would wish such a terrible fate on me. 😉
    Since it’s non-ecclesial absolution, I think we are all right.
    AMDG

  119. I’m an independent but I’m registered as a Republican so as to vote in the primary (Pa. is a closed primary state). The only two Republicans I care much about are Rubio and Kasich. On the D side, I liked Jim Webb, but he’s dropped out. So unless Rubio wins the nomination (I’d love to see a Rubio-Kasich ticket) I’ll probably end up sitting this one out, like I did in 2012, although if Hilary wins the D nomination I’ll be sorely tempted to vote against her regardless. Unless the opposition is Cruz, whom I loathe.

  120. You guys are great! As a pinko Liberal I could not find a better group of conservatives to discuss politics with. I like Sanders a lot, and I do not like Hillary, to sort of answer a question raised above. I do not consider myself a Democrat, and dislike them about as much as I dislike the Republicans, but slightly less so. I do try to take the man or woman at face value, but it has been hard with some of these Republican debates and the “crazy talk” that ensues. To me Marco Rubio makes the most sense for that party, and I’m certainly not saying that I agree with his politics. I also loathe Ted Cruz – there’s just something about that guy. Trump is entertaining, but it really seems like a clown show, P.T. Barnum with a nasty streak.
    What did everyone here think of the Bernie Sanders 60-second Simon & Garfunkel ad? I could find a link and put it here, but I’m just going to assume it is easy to find if you have not seen it. I know, I know, you all don’t like liberal progressive politics! Just wondering about reactions, that’s all.

  121. Happily, formal party registration is not required in Alabama, so I’ve never had to register as a Republican even though I generally vote that way. But it’s generally more a vote against than a vote for.
    I thought Jim Webb might have been someone I could vote for, though at this point I would hesitate to vote for any Democrat, as the party has become for all practical purposes an anti-Christian organization.
    I’m curious as to why you loathe Cruz. I don’t really know all that much about him. But I have to say he sure looks like a jerk. 🙂 There was a Facebook meme circulating a few days ago that referred to the candidates by some distinguishing characteristic, and Cruz was “Punchable Face.”

  122. Cross-posted with you, Stu. I was replying to Rob. I can pretty much guess why you loathe Cruz. 🙂
    Trump is ” P.T. Barnum with a nasty streak.”–heh–I think that’s a pretty good capsule description. Neo-neocon has done a good bit of digging regarding that nasty streak. See the third paragraph of this post.
    I’ve seen that Bernie ad posted on Facebook, with much gushing, so that I was sort of put off by that and didn’t watch it. I like some of his rhetoric, and have not seen any reason not to respect him, at least. I think I would rather see him as president than Hillary. But that idea of free college education for everybody–that seems to me to indicate a serious misunderstanding of the world, never mind the practical difficulties.

  123. I actually like that Sanders ad, Stu. As a friend of mine says, I’d vote for Bernie if he wasn’t so wrong. 😉
    The thing that first put me off Cruz was that stunt he pulled in 2014 when he dissed the Middle Eastern Christians at that summit about Muslim persecution. He’s been living down to expectations ever since.

  124. Something you might not know is that Australia had free university education for almost two decades. I got the tail end of it in my first year, 1988. Lots of Baby Boomers had their degrees with free tuition.

  125. I’m not suggesting that was a good idea! And obviously it wasn’t sustainable.

  126. I just don’t care for Cruz’s brand of religion. I think it’s kind of scary.
    I have some interest in Kasich, and if he does anything in New Hampshire, I will probably start doing some research there.
    AMDG

  127. You mean the Oil Can Harry denomination? 🙂 What did Cruz say about Middle Eastern Christians? I vaguely remember some fuss about that.
    Louise, re the university tuition: it’s not so much the “free” part that I think is…well, unrealistic to say the least…as the “everybody” part. That basically just means accelerating the current devaluation of higher ed as education, making it the equivalent of high school. We need to be working on making sure that people who don’t want or need education at that level are able to earn a decent living.

  128. Oh yes! I agree, Maclin. When I was at school, high school finished at year 10. Lots of kids finished with schooling at 15 or 16 and many got jobs or apprenticeships. I really don’t like to see young people being warehoused in institutions.
    I know nothing (and don’t wish to know anything) about Cruz apart from his name and face. Yet punching him in the face wouldn’t be enough. Poor man, he just has that kind of face.

  129. Cruz spoke at a summit in 2014 that was called to promote unity with the persecuted Christians in the mid-East. Cruz turned his speech into a pro-Israel rant, and threw the audience under the bus by saying something along the lines of “If you don’t support Israel, I don’t support you.” He was roundly booed and left the podium. Later reports seemed to indicate that the whole thing was staged by Cruz and his people as an attention-getting maneuver.

  130. Well, that sounds sufficiently jerk-ish. As I know you’re aware, way too many evangelicals have an extremely deficient understanding of the rest of Christianity. That’s when they’re not actively hostile, of course. Given the progress in ecumenical relations over the past 50 years, I’m always surprised when I run into, for instance, the “Catholics aren’t Christian” idea. But it’s definitely still there.

  131. Cruz turned his speech into a pro-Israel rant,
    Garble garble garble.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x2ZVihACwQ0
    The ‘rant’ starts at 2:35 and consists of Sen. Cruz telling a truth in one sentence that some in the audience do not wish to hear. The catcalling starts from there and he responds pugnaciously, which is what he should have done at that point.
    Later reports seemed to indicate that the whole thing was staged by Cruz and his people as an attention-getting maneuver.
    Was he invited or no? Did they catcall him or no? So what’s the ‘staging’?

  132. He was invited. He demagogued w/r/t a tangentially-related issue and went way off topic. If he didn’t know the folks present would be put-off by this, he’s an idiot. If he did know, and said the things he said anyways, he’s a cynical opportunist.
    The rumor surfaced afterwards that he knew what he was doing, and did it on purpose to demonstrate to a certain GOP contingent that he was sufficiently pro-Israel. If accurate, that is the sense in which it was staged.

  133. I love the Bernie ad!
    Im hoping it will be Rubio with Kaschich as VP

  134. He demagogued w/r/t a tangentially-related issue and went way off topic.
    The abuse of Jews by Islamic radicals is not ‘tangential’ to the abuse of Arab and Assyrian Christians (which he points out).
    The rumor surfaced afterwards
    Try not to be self-indicting.

  135. “Garble garble garble”
    Now see, this is what you don’t need to be doing. You could have just said “I don’t think it was a rant” or “I disagree”. You don’t have to sneer and suggest that you’re talking to an idiot.
    Having said that: I listened to the clip and although I wouldn’t call it rant, it does look like he was either deliberately trying to pick a fight–he seems way too ready with the “My heart weeps” line–or extremely insensitive to the situation of Christians in the Middle East.

  136. Marianne

    Kathyrn Jean Lopez at National Review interviewed Andrew Doran, the executive director of In Defense of Christians who invited Cruz to the meeting. Here’s some of what he says:

    It’s unfortunate that Senator Cruz was booed. But what’s more unfortunate is that he chose to make a summit of and for Middle Eastern Christians about something other than a summit about Middle Eastern Christians. The summit to that point, from the National Press Club to Capitol Hill, had been replete with positive references to “our Muslim and Jewish brothers and sisters.” When Mr. Cruz mentioned solidarity with Jews at the beginning of the speech, he was applauded. (This was omitted from the video footage circulating but may be found here.) But what is more unfortunate is that he chose to politicize a highly complicated and volatile subject while Christians are being systematically eradicated. The sense of nearly every person in the room, no matter what their background or affiliation, was that it was designed to bait the audience; sadly, some attendees took the bait. …
    Cruz’s talk was supposed to have been, “Religious Freedom and Human Dignity: Religious Persecution of Christians, Unity with the Persecuted Church.” Obviously, he went off script. Our goal for the summit was to achieve a sense of unity among the many hundreds of Middle Eastern Christians who attended.

    Here’s the link to the full interview.

  137. [edited–mh]
    Cruz campaigns in Iowa and says ‘no ethanol subsidies’; he addresses an audience of Arabs and says ‘lose the attitude about the Jews’; he stands on the floor of the Senate and gives a precise account of Addison Mitchell McConnell’s chicanery on behalf of a K Street fixture named Tom Donohue. The inclination to dispense with some of the humbug which suffuses public life is what’s appealing about Cruz.

  138. Marianne

    A bit more from that Lopez interview with Doran:

    Many of those present had come out of the Middle East at great personal risk to their flocks and families. Any statesman (or decent human being) would’ve appreciated this. A true statesman would meet with religious leaders and hear what they had to say. As Bishop Angaelos said on Fox News after the summit, Cruz seemed to lack empathy for those in the room whose loved ones suffer persecution.
    Over the last several years, I’ve had many conversations with Christians from the Middle East about Israel and their views land anywhere on a broad spectrum of opinion. Some are sympathetic but can’t say so because to do so would put their lives at risk; it should be sufficient to say that minorities tend to be sympathetic to other minorities. Others remember being forced to leave their villages in Palestine never to return. And still others are proud citizens of Israel. So there must be more options for Middle Eastern Christians than outspoken support for Israel and anti-Semitism. The Middle East is complicated and nuanced, whether politicians want it that way or not. That’s why serious statesmen are measured in their remarks: When they’re not, it puts lives at risk.

  139. [edited–mh]
    In your old age, you appear to be imitating Rod Dreher. That’s not what you should be doing.

  140. so my idea is that Maclin puts one of those DONATE boxes on the site, and whenever someone is judged to have answered a fool according to his folly, they put 5 dollars in the DONATE box. This will shore up Mac’s retirement.

  141. That’s a great idea, but I expect that activity would soon cease.
    As for Cruz, between the evidence of my own eyes from the video, and the things Marianne posted (thank you Marianne), the kindest thing I can say about him is that he was either ignorant or boorish in that situation.

  142. Well if the activity cessed that would be good too

  143. Yes. I thought maybe that was your plan–people would think “is it worth $5 to me to say this?” And not say it. 🙂

  144. “the kindest thing I can say about him is that he was either ignorant or boorish in that situation.”
    Bingo. We know ignorance is not a virtue. Neither is boorishness (ahem).

  145. I meant to thank Stu earlier for sharing his thoughts on the election.
    Seems to me that if I voted here, I wouldn’t really be able to vote for either of the two major parties. One is the Abortion Party and the other is the Adultery Party.
    That’s just my view, of course.

  146. This is my favorite thing Trump has said so far, “If and when the Vatican is attacked by ISIS, which as everyone knows is ISIS’ ultimate trophy, I can promise you that the pope would have only wished and prayed that Donald Trump would have been president.”
    AMDG

  147. Heh. The pope deserved that, I’m sorry to say.

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